This was the most needed balance change.
Instead we have weaker shooters and still the oppresive flamers that really just make an already not challenging enough game even easier.
8 Likes
The 30% of forum goers calling for flamethrower nerfs are insufferable. Please stop.
31 Likes
Right? I never use it any more because it feggin sucks on higher difficulties when everything turns into a shooter that you canât do anything about.
4 Likes
Thatâs not an argument, thatâs just pointlessly inflaming the conflict. If you donât think it should be nerfed, please give reasons. I personally do think it should be nerfed because besides having infinite cleave over an extremely long range, it is effective against almost every target. Maniacs slow you down a bit a crushers need Ult or to be covered by your melee weapon.
A weapon with this range, infinite cleave, and that kills the vast majority of targets in the game, including bosses! very very quickly seems pretty clearly overtuned. I donât want it nerfed into the ground and I doubt Haiboku does either. It needs something to bring its effectiveness down a bit, whether you address that through giving it a cleave limit, making it worse against specific armour types so it doesnât have quite as good enemy coverage as it does, reducing the range so you at least need to be in a more threatening position to get use out of it.
@Rainman Iâm not even gonna entertain a discussion about whether or not itâs overtuned sorry. Close to the entirety of Zealot Discord knows itâs overtuned. Iâve seen maybe one or two Damnation regulars here genuinely argue it isnât overtuned. It needs some adjustments, it would be nice if this thread could be a discussion of the best way to do that rather than just having people shout âdonât nerf!â with no follow up.
7 Likes
Just want to chime in and agree w/ this. I run flamer all the time and yes, itâs obviously overtuned.
Unless youâre in a 4-zealot group where everyone is running flamer, this just isnât an issueâŚ
1 Like
i was thinking the best way to nerf it would be to keep it as a horde clearer and a boss killer but significantly reduce its damage and stagger to elites and specials.
2 Likes
Yeah this would work. Or just change it from area damage to finite cleave. Or even just remove its interaction with zealot F skill, which kind of seems like a bug anyway?
2 Likes
yea some guns feel good with the ultimate but the flamer definitly shouldnt get that benefit
2 Likes
After playing the zealot extensively and getting very comfortable with damnation+ I finally got bored of being op and decided to roll a Psyker for more of a challenge. I am on probably the lowest pop server (oce gamepass), which made finding a group even for malice pretty hard outside the peak couple hours. So I ended up spending a lot of time trying to true solo damnation+, and with the flamer would frequently get several stages through. Iâm not a great player, but the flamer really is so easy to use that my skill wasnât really an issue. My flamer wasnât great stats, but it had burn and cloud radius near max and a mid rank showstopper, making it far more powerful than any other 380 weapon.
With the Psyker I naturally gravitated to the purgatus staff, because flames op right. While it is strong, if you dedicate your entire build to the task and considerable attention to executing it, it still wasnât as strong as the zealot who takes the flamer as their alternative weapon without any feats required or skill to execute. And youâre still a psyker made of glass, so one mistake and youâre just dead. Whereas the zealot has the best survivability in the game baked into their kit. With the purgatus staff you actually need some skill to get it to do work too. Managing your peril so you donât explode. Charging it up without getting interrupted and then channeling it out without getting interrupted. Not to mention keeping track of your warp charges to try boost your damage up to be a bit less behind the flamer. Also having to find other solutions for every hardy target the zealot can just burn to death with a simple f click. Dealing with less range and needing to take risks to get a bit closer.
After playing both it really boggles my mind trying to understand why the balance team thought a class and build entirely dedicated to one thing (burning) ought to do it worse in every way compared to the zealotâs off hand weaponâŚ
5 Likes
The flamer is seriously overrated. I donât get why people say it needs to get nerfed.
Itâs slow.
Itâs cumbersome.
Itâs very limited in range.
And in my humble opinion it is a much worse option to pick compared to any other gun.
The niche that is filled by the Flamer is ironically the one thing the Zealot can do without a Flamethrower easily and that is crowd-controlling and murdering large groups of hostiles in close quarter combat.
Do you people asking for flamer nerfs even realize that you march into battle gimped? With a Flamer you essentially trade your only possible ranged option as a Zealot in for a secondary melee weapon that requires ammo.
Any sniper or gunner comes along and youâre caught pants down.
11 Likes
lol based accelerationist.
That said, though, thatâs exactly the reason it shouldnât be nerfed. Itâs already a B-Tier weapon, let the LARPers have fun with it.
1 Like
They can larp in lower difficulties where they belong.
At least psyker gets away with it because psyker staff donât need ammo, and has brainburst for range.
Between melee and stumm grenade, flamer is just a massive opportunity cost for very little if any gain.
2 Likes
I hate seeing flamers because I like the melee fighting and they hork down small ammo packs even though they only give like 3% back. Wait for the big bags and stop using it on poxwalkers.
2 Likes
Great constructive and well reasoned feedback, you got there⌠/s
This sounds a lot like you think that you are something better than the Zealot players using the Flamer, like you are just mad about people using it, and want it completely removed from your sight.
2 Likes
To be fair, this is not really a problem, unless you play solo.
Regarding balance of the Zealotâs and the Psykerâs flamer:
The zealot has more range and can keep firing for a long time (which the psyker can not: need to charge the staff and to quell peril).
While the zealot needs ammo and has to reload, the ammo usually does not run out at all, and a single magazine is large enough to last through a horde (effectively removing the downside of having to reload).
It seems like almost every zealot (at least a majority) uses the flamethrower (although it should be considered, that the flamer is the only horde clear ranged option for zealots), while psyker staff usage seems to be pretty evenly distributed.
If the mag capacity of the Zealot Flamer was reduced by about 50%, the flamethrower would share some of the downsides, that the psyker has to deal with. This might also incentivise the user to not just hold down the button until everything is dead, while not causing a zealot to run around and take away all the ammo from veteran players.
An other option would be to touch the range or aoe, or the damage tick rate of the flamer, and to reduce the stagger.
That way the damage output would be lowered (especially when trying to cover a bigger area), while also increasing the risk when using the weapon against elites.
1 Like
Honestly big thing that needs to be decided before itâs touched is if the interaction between the Zealot F ability and the flamer is a glitch or not.
I would also rather than adjust things in stages vs just nerfing it into the ground when people canât seem to decide what makes it good.
Like great, you want to nerf the flamer, what should its intended role be? Should it lose its ability to deal with heavier specials and be entirely horde clear?
Should it be tuned more towards being better vs groups of specials and have reduced horde reach?
Should it sit somewhere in the middle?
Is it an ammo issue where it doesnât eat enough?
Is it a range issue where itâs not countered by ranged enemies enough?
Is it that it actually has to much stagger?
Are people just upset because âmuh particle effectsâ?
A few notes just seems to be âI clears damnation goodâ but at least two of the posts mention the F effecting it which I would bet is a glitch.
People just seem dead set on it making it âtoo easyâ but donât seem to ask why no one wants to run anything else.
There are valid constructive feedback like reducing efficiency vs some armor, cutting ammo, reducing range but also some clown level âI dun like other people having funâ takes.
3 Likes
Yeap, flamer is a range version of power sword
it should be a horde and boss killer. currently you can stagger elites and specials super hardcore with it. stagger on ragers and maulers should be almost nonexistant to make this weapon in a better spot. that would force people to pull out melee when the elites reach the front of the horde and not just use the flamer to melt and stagger every single enemy in front of you.
reducing the ammo is the worst way to nerf this weapon. this removes a ton of ammo from the map and makes flamer zealots hated by other people who need ammo.
this weapon just needs to be something you pull out to clear the poxwalkers in the events and to do high damage to bosses.
what it shouldnt do is kill every single elite and special thats trying to get to you on its way through a horde.
2 Likes
Flamer range is huge, if this range isnât enough you can dash or dash even two times and dodge slide. Itâs not even a problem. Itâs obvious anyone saying flamer isnât op havenât played this game a lot. Anyone with some decent ammounts of hours in this game knows that if there is a flamer run become a faceroll cuckold gaming, where you almost do nothing and just sit and watch.
I can generally agree with some of the points but if thatâs the case I feel like you also are going to need to adjust the blessings along with it since some of them are based on the assumption that it can somewhat stagger already / can comfortably deal with elites enough to actually kill them, otherwise some existing weapon rolls are going to have some fairly worthless blessings on them if it ends up being over adjusted and canât deal with even shotgunners and / or things like trappers and other close in specials.