By the way this one half here damage per second dealt by dots. The talent makes the dots tick half as fast as usual 
that what it means (dots last 100% longer)
So this talent makes her deal less damage 
i would say her power comes because many talents synergizing pretty good with each other and with her passives. The passives alone are not that powerful.
Interesting, didn’t know that, however, this makes Malediction of Nagash more potent than it would be if the flames went out quicker, so it’s definitely not a debuff.
My point remains, changing a few talents to amplify the use of her summons won’t significantly damage Necromancer’s power and even smaller increases to the number and power of the skeletons can still feel and behave in an impactful way with the aid of visual/audio feedback.
Even small changes to a career can significantly alter how they may be played to provide players more practical options and flavor side-by-side.
If you want DPS flavor 1, 2, and 3, for something like the level 10 talent row I’d argue Sienna’s other careers already offer enough of that. Even if you enjoy Necromancer as is, I would encourage you to consider that there’s probably still room in her talent tree for changes that others who want more Necromancy might enjoy while still having options you enjoy. I recommend capitalizing more on what makes Necromancer unique.
Depends on your playstyle, i am casting a lot and so without this passive i would deal more damage, because i would have the dots up anyway.
I doubt that smaller increases to the skellies would make her appealing. Giving skellies more hp? I guess it would only result in more boredom, because you dont have to care about them. And spirit leech maybe would be redundant if the skellies live longer than the ultimate cooldown. Even on cata i have almost always 4 skellies at the moment my ult is ready again.
Increasing attack speed? i dont know if this would be recognizeable if the damage output wont be significantly buffed, otherwise it would underperform and just buffing sienna would be always better (that is what @Adelion is talking about when he speaks of the math game).
Buffing stagger? They already stagger enemies and they also bind a lot of enemies. Patrols are already much easier to deal with if the skellies are up.
Increasing HP? Dread Senshal is already doing this.
To be honest i dont see much potential for the things you want. They are either already implemented or they would be dead talents because they would always underperform compared to any, even very small sienna buff.
Earlier I brought up more specific examples of my own. Take a look at those if you’re interested.
Suffice it to say the examples you’re using as ways to buff the summon are not what I suggest.
It seem highly dismissive to simply say buffs to skeletons must all be boring and feel unimpactful or perform in a way that isn’t impactful.
You and I have different preferences. I find it rewarding to have more skeletons and to see them performing well, maybe you don’t, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they can’t be improved in ways that are enjoyable.
I think you may also underestimate the role that the visuals and audio play in this game. Practical gameplay effects paired with feedback is a major component of this game’s core appeal
I was thinking of those, and you also mentioned summoning an additional skeleton, but the same, i dont think that an additional skeleton would have a big impact.
The audio cues are already sometimes bit overloaded so that you cant hear them because they are played simultaniously or being straight up messed up and dont play at all because so much is going on.
Not impactful in which respect? Would it be too ineffective or not fun?
Personally, I find it rewarding and enjoyable to have opportunities to get more skeletons. That’s why sometimes I take Army of the Dead, even if it isn’t as effective as Dread Senechal.
Also, if you think any of the suggestions I made were not effective or OP, then the numbers can be adjusted, if you don’t think it would feel impactful, that might be your preference and I would disagree.
I think it would be better to capitalize more on what makes Necromancer unique.
I didn’t say that you said this. My take was on answering the thread in general. And for this I have taken the position of all power into the summons. The reason for this was based on the subsequent argumentation. EVEN if ALL power - which will not happen for reasons - was transferred into the skeletons, there wouldnt be much more talents that could be added which feel impactful. I know very well that a good portion of power needs and will stay with the Necromancer. Though in this case, the increments for skeletons will be even smaller if you introduce dps talents and the impact equally smaller. That was the take: Even for the extreme scenario it wouldnt change much of the gameplay feeling. If you consider the current situation, it will be even worse. That is why I said “Best-Case-Analysis” before. Again, I did not say that was your position.
However, I said that you seem to want something more flashy as all examples concerning the underlying issue with power spread among multiple summons you answered:
Appeared to me that the power discussion did seem less relevant.
And this topic I adressed at least three times. Yes, making talents which do not adress Sienna but the Skeletons work for
but not for
At least if the goal is to create different gameplay. Augmenting Skeletons will not work, it will not feel good. Utility does work as I have stated several times. Though most of the utility is already within the existing Necromancer outside of Skeletons being healed.
Which I also argue that more Skeletons would possibly result in more spread. Although, if FS skips on Skeletons augment, they could go a route where instead of Sienna having more power she could summon one or two Skeletons more. That would also adress the visual feedback. However, this only works if no dps talents for the skeletons exist because you have otherwise two independent scales which need to be taken into balance consideration. It would decrease build variety.
That said, I can imagine at least one talent - not sure in which row - which could be added to adress some of your concerns. Though, it would be associated with FS putting in a lot of work. So that seems also out of question.
I think it will feel good and I think I would enjoy even a small bonus to the skeletons. A small bonus can feel effective, especially with the aid of feedback.
It seems like you can saying buffs to summons won’t feel impactful as if you are the sole arbiter of what feels impactful. This seems more subjective and I don’t share your personal concern here. I’ve already addressed this concern about feeling impactful by describing ways in which a bonus can be applied, such as making a short lived powerful effect on damage with some simple visual and audio to show skeletons being “enraged”. If that wouldn’t make it feel impactful to you, that might just be you.
I’m not quite sure I understand what your point is here. Adding constraints to how often and how long a bonus skeleton is given and lasts should be enough to address balance concerns.
It also seems you’re saying that you’re saying because DPS talents for skeletons exist that having a way to get a few extra decreases build variety. I don’t see why. To me it seems the opposite because that’s how talents are synergized.
Follow the math again, even in a best case scenario the dps bonus to the skeletons will be so small that - due to the spread - that it will not affect the gameplay.
I am not an arbiter who dictates stuff. I look at the available variables and scenarios. The calculations while simplified give a very good outlook on how it plays out. This is as objective as it can be, given with how that conclusion is reached. Even if you make the bonus look more flashy, it will not affect the surrounding gameplay. It will literally be the same. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if the gameplay feeling will be affected unrelated to the visual presentation. If yes then yes, if no then no. The visualization is just a bonus but it will not hide a talent not impacting the gameplay.
There is - or at least there should be - an upper limit on what total “power” a hero in whatever form can reach. If you start making talents you need to consider the possible synergies and you need to check if these synergies break this upper limit. If you now make two talents affecting the same variable - in this case total dps of all skeletons added - you have to consider this too. This means, either you spread the power across all potential skeletons or you spread the power across the “standard” amount of skeletons which would be currently the six summoned. In the first scenario, you would need to get both the dps talent and the more skeleton talent because otherwise they would be even more useless as dps source as their total is calculated under the assumption that you have both. In the second scenario, people would still take both talents at the same time because due to the hypersynergy it is far more powerful than the other options. You would reduce a 3x3 matrix down to a 2x3 matrix + 1. The variety decreases because both talents need to or are because of powergaming chosen together most of the time.
Consider it like the Battle Wizard scenario: If you take Fire Sword with BW, then most likely you also take the increased fire damage and the increased attack speed on cleaving four enemies because this combination creates a hypersynergy. And while you can argue that you can take other combinations and that you totally do so, it does not change that in QP Legend and Cataclysm the absolute majority does take this very combination because it is the powergaming option. Hypersynergy decreases build variety.
I still don’t see any math that says a talent that allows them to deal more damage has to be so small it will be ineffective, nor so large it will be overpowered. The obvious answer to me is to increase the damage to the extent the damage being dealt makes sense. Why can’t it be proportional?
The “math” can be adjusted to achieve the desired effect, but from my perspective, it seems like you just goalposts to move around. I’ve heard ineffective and OP used to describe the same suggestion. If I suggest fine-tuning by moving the dial one way or the other, it doesn’t suit. I know what your preferences are, but I see no reason it can’t work from a gameplay perspective, and I’m not allowing one person to tell me what people in general feel is effective just because they say so.
Maybe I’m being a bit dense here, but I don’t really understand why adjustments can’t be made to ensure buffs feel and perform in an effective way when applied to summons.
Thank you for clarifying, that is certainly true and this game has enough of an issue where certain buffs stack to make a few builds stand head and shoulders above the others because of how talents synergize.
When considering which talents influence each other, I don’t think it requires any high-level math or programming to implement a way to curb excess. If you have sets of talents that snowball, just add in a blurb in the description related to having reduced effect when paired with another talent, trait, or effect.
I may be missing something, but I don’t see this happening based on anything I suggested so far. For example, if Vanhel’s Danse Macabre were changed into something that gives a temporary buff to skeletons’ DPS I don’t see any talents that would create a snowball effect. All of the level 30 talents have effects on damage output via skeletons, either by increasing the number, via setting enemies on fire, or the 50% damage bonus to Deadly Senechals.
Just curious, did something I suggest imply an issue in this area more so than it would be were we not talking about a “summon” talent?
Missed this edit earlier. Seems like another example of taking what I said to an extreme. It shouldn’t take much imagination to realize why changing the skeleton sound for a temporary buff can be done without polluting the audio.
Consider that the skeletons already make sound, and, subtlety works in this case because there’s no need for an obnoxious or loud attention-grabbing sound cue to show indicate when a buff is active on the skeletons; something simple that provides basic feedback will do. If skeletons were under the influence of a temporary damage buff, it wouldn’t be overwhelming to simply change or augment their sounds so that it’s noticeably different and that can be done in a tasteful way, likewise for any visual effects added.
But it is proportional if you want to call it so. That is the whole issue. Consider any talent in the game which increases dps in a strong way. Something like +20 % Attack Speed, so rare that it exist only on one career (I think) and for strange reasons a trait. And this is applied on the summons. Now since the summons do very low damage - as they are multiple, you have to decrease their respective damage in a proportional way - they still do low damage even with the higher attack speed. In addition, they do not benefit in the same way from the attack speed buff as their attacks have other stagger values and they will also never reach breakpoints for any enemy because of their proportional low damage.
I would have to see the specific example and if there was something mixed up on mine or your side. I don’t think I have done this. … I think what you mean and it might be my wording which has not been exactly clear. For the dps talents on the lower end, they will not cause any difference in gameplay and feel impactful. That was what I said, you can check the previous posts. However, this does not mean that they are ineffective. I would have to check myself but I am pretty sure that I didnt use the word ineffective. Actually, I stated that the endgame stats will rise. But the increase in dps per skeleton will not be felt gameplay-wise, saying the gameplay will be exactly the same way. The way you play the Necromancer by using this talent will not change, unlike for utility which can be felt more clearly.
On the other side, if you add more skeletons and dps talents (maybe even multiples), the damage “can” spiral out of control because while not being impactful, they still dish out more damage. I see that this can be hard to understand as where the differences are.
This whole forum is subjective. My opinion is, your opinion is and I am not dictating you anything. But to me it seems that you want me to roll over and consider my argument invalid. I mean seriously what kind of argumentation would you consider objective? When someone tells you he did the math and Ressourceful Combatant is worse for cooldown reduction than Swift Slaying, would you believe him? When someone tells you he did the math and dps talents on Skeletons wouldn’t alter gameplay for the given reasons, would you believe him?
Depends on the buff, utility yes, dps no. Although the way you have worded it here, I would have to change my answer. I use the words effective and impactful differently. More dps is definetely to a certain degree effective. As in an earlier example, where I compared the skeleton damage to a fireball. The form of the dps does not make a difference of its effectiveness. Given it to the hero or the summons does not make a real difference here (well it does since the same damage might be spread around multiple targets but let’s ignore that discussion). However, does it feel impactful in a way that it would be gameplay-altering. That is what I question heavily.
But let’s put an end to this discussion because it leads absolutely nowhere. At all.
Would be novum. Doesnt mean it is not possible. Would be interesting to see how the community reacts to such a thing.
Hm, I want to say that it is only temporarily but that would be wrong at least for Dread Senechal. I missed the damage part there. Though an argument I can still bring is that these talents will not influence each other as they can’t be picked at the same time (outside of Chaos Wastes). And another argument that I can bring is that I doubt many people would chose the +50 % damage if not for the accompanied health increase (longer shield function) and attack stagger function which are both utilities and therefore more impactful.
But let us just put an end to this discussion. Yes?
No, I’m immediately dubious when I see things like that on a forum, especially regarding claims that have more to do with individual preferences like gameplay. People cite statistics and math all the time that don’t necessarily support their claims.
For one, what feels significant is often cosmetic and preferential, but regarding gameplay, you may have a point that I missed…
Now I think I see what you’re saying here and this might be where my misunderstanding comes from, which brings me to my second point:
When you talk about gameplay, you mean significantly altering which actions the player must take, rather than what happens when you take those actions (though that might be a confusing way to say what I mean.)
When I see the word “gameplay” I’m not always as focused on how I’m playing the game, but also on what happens in response to my actions while playing.
If I have an option for a career talent that gives me a chance to get an extra skeleton up to maybe 4 to 6 extra, 1 per crit kills, I’ll take that over crits cleaving 100% with 25% power. That might not significantly alter how I play because I’m still going for effective crit banking, but the point isn’t necessarily to alter gameplay; in fact, I’d prefer the way she plays to largely stay the same, but make her more unique is the effect.
If the effect of a crit is that I cleave and do a bunch of damage, so what? There’s a lot of cirts, DPS, DOT stuff in the game already for Sienna. The unique thing about a Necormancer is not fire (besides cold teal flames of Nagash), it is the undead minions. If my crit has a 25% chance to summon another skeleton lasting 30 seconds, that’s a much more interesting effect to me.
The cirt damage being dealt directly might even be more effective than the other, but if both are decent, I will always pick the one that gives me more skeletons cause I get that dopamine hit from collecting skeletons. For me, that’s the gameplay incentive right there and it would make Necromancer feel less like another fire wizard and more like a Necromancer.
Significantly altering the gameplay isn’t the goal for me; rather, the gameplay is already fine, but I want to see the effects of how I’m playing do something more unique than what they currently do because that’s what makes the gameplay fun for me and delivers a more unique experience.
Now that I think I understand what you mean by “significantly altering gameplay”, your math stuff makes more sense. You’re right, Summoner type gameplay doesn’t quite fit Vermintide and most games like that have a top-down camera, whereas in Vermintide having lots of summons that you have to micromanage doesn’t fit Vermintide’s gameplay and would become massive visual clutter in first person.
When you say what I want is more spectacle than changes that effect gameplay, in a sense you’re right. I don’t think I would significantly change how Necromancer plays, so much as I would the effects her talents and the player gameplay actions already being taken to have an effect that says “Necromancer” more than it does “Fire Wizard #4”.
I’m calling your points hyperbolic because you often start them off in extremes. Even if you max your CDR and drink your purple pot the amount of Skeletons you’ll have is hard capped by that crappy timer in AotD. Or saying that we’re trying to shift 100% power into her skeletons as opposed to a 40%-60% split, or heck not even a split but actually making the summons more integral to her gameplay rather than making the character itself dry bed. Outside of Azir from LoL, I don’t think there’s ever been a summoner class in any game where a character is less than 50% effectiveness without summons. All of the summoners in even something like Overwatch are capable of fending for themselves with all of their summons dead. Or Carl have a basic movesets when separated from his pet.
I don’t know why you would assume that, I even brought up the possibility of different talents creating different amounts of skeletons of various impact. Only playstyle negatively impacted is Army of the Dead which itself needs to be reworked regardless of this discussion or not anyways.
But that’s quite an assumption to make without any existing examples to back up.
Anyone who spent any time solo with bots can tell you buffing their bots are pretty clearly felt whether it’s through potions, renewal, animosity or drengbarazi oath, whether it’s a crowd suddenly dying a little faster or the monsters health bar suddenly dropping faster.
Not to mention half of whether something is “felt” or not comes directly from audio visual feedback rather than how powerful it actually is. D2’s skeletons are overpowered AF and tears through everything to shred, but the feedback is garbage, as it didn’t even feel like their attacks landed. In stark contrast the samurai in Bioshock is so garbage it can’t even kill a single enemy, but he leaves a hell of an impression and feels powerful. How much power the skeletons feel is entirely on how much FS decides to work on feedback.
What typically works is if the power is player activated and is represented by an icon. Keeping Mercenary’s Paced Strike feels great I’m part because that icon is there showing you how often you’re granting your party an offensive bonus as well as damage reduction because you cleaved enough enemies.
Granting Van Hel’s Danse Macabre to skeletons would work because 1) the offensive boost is substantial and 2) you can both see the difference and the icon is informing you anyways.
Another easy to implement solution is for the buff to exist in short but more powerful bursts with an audio visual indicator.
For example, and this just spit balling for the sake of argument, if there’s a talent that grants all skeletons a guaranteed Crit or some sizable damage boost on their NEXT attack the moment a condition is met, say every 50 overcharge is vented, the player would sure as hell feel it both in feedback and actual performance. Like imagine after hitting a venting threshold, the talent icon flashes and all the skeletons weapons subtly glow, and the first attack they make is more audible for the Necromancer. The end-result is similar to a weaker buff over a longer period, but on a single concentrated moment.
It’d obviously depend on how they’re implemented. But keep in mind the problem right now IS the fact that there’s currently no talents supporting them.
That’s the entire point of the thread. She’s a NECROMANCER…and almost none of her talents supports being a NECROMANCER
This is an example in my last reply to you of what’s going on here. The way you phrase this, it doesn’t sound like it’s your opinion, but rather, it reads like you’re assuming how the suggestions were making would feel to players in general.
@GreenColoured, if I understand correctly what Adelion means by “gameplay feeling the same” is that the actions the player takes will essentially remain the same. In many games to play a summoner means managing summons. The talent suggestions we came up with involve many of the same conditions for triggering a summon buff as her original talents did for buffing the player themselves.
I think keeping the conditions the same while changing the effect from Sienna buff to summon buff is a good thing because I’m not asking to significantly alter talents to require complicated summoning tactics, essentially what we’re talking about is changing the effects her talents have from directly buffing Sienna herself to having effects that involve Necromancy or buff summons.
I think one of the main points of contention is the idea that more summon-related talents need major gameplay changes felt by the player in a meaningful way, and that’s just not the case for me, and the way Adelion phrases a lot of this makes it unclear whether he speaking for himself or for players in general regarding how the changes would be felt. I feel the gameplay is more meaningful when the effect is more unique and entertaining. For me, playing a Necromancer would be more entertaining if my summons prove more effective, and if I can get lots of them. I get a little dopamine hit in games whenever I get more skeletons than before.
Adelion the problems with your take is you’re trying to use what you think is “objective math” to sound logical, present your numbers…and then make extremely subjective claims whether your numbers back you up or not without any actual evidence to the contrary. Can you give prior examples as evidence that having more talents to support her career’s core identity is impossible or won’t be satisfying? Your argument is backed up by simple math that isn’t consistent with your claims.
Even worse, you’ve wilfully been ignoring the main crux of the thread, how little the Necromancer’s talent tree have anything to do with Necromancy or her summons outside of something as superficial as “when you press the career skill button”. What is an objective fact right now is how.
Let me lay an objective fact for you. If we disregard the 5/15 talents as being irrelevant constants across all 20 careers, that leaves 12 talents that are unique for letting players customize how they take a career. All 20 have at the very least 3 thanks to the 30’s talents changing the Career Skill in a substantial way, so if we tare the 30’s, we are left with left with 9 talents unique among them.
Among the Necromancer’s talent, only two somewhat hinges on the skeletons existence to function, and a grand total of 0/9 actually utilizes the skeletons in any way outside of existing (3/12 pre-tare)
Now compare and contrast with Bounty Hunter where 7/9 of his unique talents are relevant to his identity (10/12 pre-tare)
What evidence do you have to back this claim?
That does seem to be the case. A lot of the arguments I’m hearing sounds a lot like Riot’s justifications for removing almost all auras and DoT effects in the game on popular characters. “Players wouldn’t feel it” as a handwave without any evidence to back up just because they personally can’t perceive the effect.
As for my stance of this, if I’m playing a Necromancer let me feel like a God damn Necromancer. Either make the skeleton summons integral to her identity or don’t make her a Necromancer at all. You wasted all that art asset and resources to give her a talent tree that completely forgets that she’s a Necromancer. If I wanted to get a fighter or direct damage number I’d have picked unchained or battle wizard