Muh Havoc feedback

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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Just had one of THE best Havoc runs after a series of crummy luck/parties.

Some feedback from all over the place:

First, a major major issue right now is the weirdness with starting a mission. This has to be fixed. If someone hasn’t claimed their cache for the last week – which takes significantly more effort than just popping open the party finder to join a game – then there’s a very vague error that’s thrown saying someone in the party isn’t eligible. It’s very frustrating and very confusing. Players can’t be expected to know how to work around this themselves…after quite a few Havoc matches, I was only just clued into this mitigation (i.e. everyone getting their cache) tonight. People will just bail instead of sticking around for whichever rando didn’t do XYZ to get the party to work. This, and any other bugs related to starting a mission, really needs to be fixed.

Secondly, I haven’t had any issues with players leaving mid-mission. And I think the lack of drop-in is totally appropriate. I feel the no-commitment-drop-in-and-go style works quite well for the main game with people being able to come or quit as they please without (probably) ruining a match. But I do not think it would work for Havoc. It would be an absolutely miserable experience to drop into basically any second of any Havoc 20+ match, where you really need a high-level view of what has happened, where it’s moving, what threats are live right now, how close you are to a likely monster spawn, how your team is setup, etc. And you get none of that with drop-in like in normal matches.

And that’s fine imo. Havoc is a very different thing, made for a specific group of people imo, and it’s really quite an intense challenge. It does not seem to be intended to be PUG’d(although I’ve been having a ton of fun exclusively PUG’ing).

Third: I personally haven’t had any major issues with the party finder, but it does suck when a party disintegrates (especially one you’re vibing with). But people are going to quit (often) after a team fails. I’m a problem solver by nature, but I really believe there’s just no way to mitigate this. There are simply so many reasons to drop (it’s exhausting, for one) that I really believe there’s nothing much that can be done there.

Forth: I feel the need for communication everywhere when things are going wrong (and when things are going right). It’s so obvious that Havoc is meant for pre-mades or players with a willingness to use VC. Unfortunately, that’s not really my bag. But I love the challenge, so maybe I’ll venture into the Discord (none of my friends have the skillz). At any rate, I really appreciate this aspect of the difficulty. It’s something that is noticeably missing from Auric down, and I think there’s some real value there (even if it’s not my cup of tea).

Finally, some thoughts on derank: I really don’t feel much, if any, pressure from derank. The absolute CRUSH of 20+ is frankly enough of a rush and a carrot and a stick for me. I can’t play Havoc every night (because I’m tired or don’t have much time or don’t want to really push it), but when I do I’m not at all thinking about my rank. The 3 tries before a demotion are often plenty to progress. But even if I was slipping down the ranks, I don’t think it’d matter much. At a certain point, it’s all quite hard with PUGs.

I haven’t really thought through the implications of removing derank, and I do think it serves a purpose to funnel players into the skill brackets where they belong (hello, I’m a mid-20s-at-best atm), but it feels lukewarm. Not enough of a drive (for me at least), even though I see the grind to 40 and understand that it’s meant to be a hard, long-term goal for most players. But that goal requires 3 other humans of considerable skill, and I think that’s where the issue lies. Not sure what improvements could be made there, and I’m not sure removing derank altogether is a solution, but at best it doesn’t feel great to “lose” something.

Anyway, loving Havoc. Took out twins + a captain + a plague ogryn, which all spawned together right before the stairs to the Bridge of Many Martyrs in Enclavum Baros (which I used to call “Enclavum Bore-oss” but t’wern’t nothing boring about this). It freaking ruled. Nothing like it in Auric, which I know is still tops difficult for a wide wide range of players.

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Yeah, Havoc continues to be a very fun game mode mired by systems that makes it annoying to play. Main reason I even want deranking is it just makes it easier to add ‘short cuts’ in the systems without ‘ruining’ it.

I feel drop in drop out play can work if the person’s prepared for it, or if the system spawns you in during the brief ‘dead zones’ in the mission where a wave’s just been finished and a new one is just about to be ran into. Main reason I want drop in/out is A. so I can just fall into the chaos and do my best to help make it work or get demolished, but whatever at least I got to just play, and B. so when someone disconnects either through malice or unfortunate issues on there end, it isn’t just an immediate ‘welp gg go next’ and people can like try and eek out the current wave and then see if others join them.

Right now with the aspect of ‘losing’ something, it sucks two fold having any of your team leave, as you just lost and you demoted, where as if there was drop in drop out at least partly implemented you could ‘maybe still have it work out’. And I feel, at least to me, that’s the most fun in Darktide, getting randomly ODST dropped into a malestrom with everyone dead and a the last team mate down or desperately fighting, clawing your way over to them tooth and nail and helping them to their feet by the skin of your collective teeth, and then pulling through with the might of the emperor. You don’t really get that in havoc, you just have ‘are winning’ or ‘just lost’ states, which can feel massively deflating when it’s not through a fault of your own in any way, someone just got tripped over by a single crusher smack down and auto left instead of seeing what happened from there, and now you just lost dang guess I should have been a better body for him?!??

So, I say ‘drop in drop out but you gotta have reached/be at 40 to initiate it’ (as in the joiner has to be) would be my preferred. Premade to the top (or pubs if you got the iron will these days), then you earned your ability to ‘matchmake’. That’s my thought at least.

Beyond that, mostly entirely agree. Games a level of hard in even just 20+ havoc now that makes it a treat, and I’d love to do it more if it didn’t punish me for trying to carry a 16 with fresh off the boat gimmlyDlotus and his triplet of stooges. If I didn’t need to care about losing that game, I’d be way more inclined to just ‘spam games to feel alive again’, I did that before before they added group wide deranking. But now that I need to care about the team comp as much as the host does, and it’s all a job board desperately applying and hoping you ‘get into a good one this time’, I’m just like I’m sorry but I just can’t XD. (I dang near one that game too, I just happened to want to try out my Veteran that day and got a Nurgle and two captains on the bridge after the elevator, and it’s like ‘I can push none of you off with my shout and the only other team mate of mine up just suicided into the nurgles mouth on the other side of the bridge, welp, that sucks. I tried.’)

Though, I will admit it is probably more a psychological thing, but I should be being made to want to play the game mode right? Not be made not to want to play the game mode? xD Carrot verses stick you know?

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Havoc is very… ADDICTING.

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The threat of demotion takes all the fun out of it for me so I won’t play.

Havoc is hard as nails at the top level. Completing a mission is all the incentive there needs to be. I don’t want external forces boring into my skull and I don’t want to unnecessarily hate a quitter. People have to quit for all sorts of legitimate reasons. But with the demotion mechanic it’s a deathnell for the team and a guaranteed demotion.

If demotion has to remain then my suggestion before was solid and would have been much better than the fuel to the fire they shoe horned in the last update.

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Frankly I do not want a premade carried lvl40 joining my havoc game mid-game. I like the steadiness and inevitability of havoc games in contrast to the mission board. Rotating through two whole crews was funny at first but now slightly irritates me. Havoc instead has a do or die policy fitting me nicely.

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The big Damocles sword hanging above you: an arbitrary digital number being reduced by one.
Sorry about that, I don’t want to offend. I simply cannot understand.

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If it means nothing then why have it at all?

It means you can’t just jump in to a higher level of you’ve been demoted. Also incurs stigmas to the sweats.

I got to level 40 then demoted to zero because of that bug that happened before last update. The whole demotion system is utter garbage.

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Very simple → it puts everyone in its comfort zone. For example: I never use meta stuff nor voice chat and sit comfortably between 20 and 30. In a higher level I would probably be a liability and lower levels I already clutched from time to time. But where I am, I am having fun and am thoroughly challenged. And people I encounter are near my skill level, there is overall far less spread than on the mission board.
I see havoc as one additional mission which scales with your willingness/sweat/abilities and with captains ( <3) and In this forum I meet mostly people hung up on that 40 levels thing. But as darktide works there are not 40 predefined fine tuned levels, there is rather a plethora of similar difficulty slightly increasing maps, where it is nice to have your bracket of maps you enjoy.
I do however understand that there are people who want different brackets based on some circumstances, this however I see as a luxury problem as there are already multiple game modes in this game catering to different audiences additionally to multiple workarounds in havoc itself. Removing the deranking (in brackets sorting) mechanism would destroy the whole idea I see behind havoc, thus I do not like it.