More Efficient (And More Team Friendly) Ammo Crates Would Be Nice

So after a smidgen of testing it seems like ammo crates have four uses, and each use refills a user’s ammo to full, regardless of how much ammo they were missing. (I tested this in the Meat Grinder with a mod that let me spawn ammo crates, so if there’s some additional logic that comes into play when there are multiple people around, I didn’t see it.)

So this is a pretty awful system, for a few reasons.

Most obviously, it’s not only possible, but very easy to waste the majority of the ammo of an ammo crate. But, the real trouble starts when you actually TRY to be efficient. Once you realize that the ammo create has four uses that get depleted no matter how much ammo you have left, the obvious way to use an ammo crate efficiently is to only take from one when you’re completely out of ammo, and so if an ammo crate is dropped you should take any opportunity to spend ammo right away.

This means that trying to use an ammo crate efficiently turns it into the Prisoner’s Dilemma, which is appropriate if you think about it I guess. If all four players only take from the ammo crate when they’re completely out of ammo, then that works out fine, but if only SOME players are trying to be efficient, then players who AREN’T trying to be efficient can very easily just eat all the ammo without noticing that some players didn’t get any, especially with how little the average player already pays attention to how much ammo their teammates have.

My neuroticism about ammo efficiency notwithstanding, generally all this isn’t much of a real problem of course. After all the majority of players will just dump the ammo crate down when they need a refill regardless of what their team is doing, or will forget they’re carrying an ammo crate at all, or just never pick them up in the first place no matter how many times I ping it. But, it is still a thing that could be improved quite a lot without that big of a change in function.

A simple solution:
The amount of ammo crate used up should closely match how much ammo a player actually needed to take out of it to be restored to full. This would prevent a lot of waste, which would be especially useful in scenarios when the players have to stay in one spot and defend for an extended period of time (I really started to notice the inefficiency while playing Mortis Trials, where ammo can be a lot more scarce, and where one person mindlessly grabbing ammo twice from the same crate just to top off can really hobble someone else with an ammo hungry weapon). I think that would be a lot more satisfying as well, since it just makes intuitive sense that only getting a few rounds out of an ammo crate only uses up a tiny portion of it.

Instead of having four flat full refills, I propose ammo crates have a stack of “charges” and each charge represents a small percentage of any given player’s maximum ammunition, say, 1%.

If a player has half ammo when they take from the crate, they will use up 50 charges. If a player has no ammo left at all, they’ll use up 100 charges. If a player is only missing 1% of their ammo, they’ll only take 1 charge. Etc. This means that players don’t have to ever feel self conscious about how much of the team’s potential ammo they’re taking out of a crate, because there’s almost no waste. Just topping off is fine.

The question then becomes how many charges an ammo crate should have at maximum. If we’re going with how much a current ammo crate can potentially supply, four full refills, and each charge is 1%, the maximum ought to be 400. But, like I said, most people don’t use a crate only when they’re at 0. In practice, having 400 charges that can be used up with very little waste would mean a pretty big effective increase in how much ammo players actually get out of a crate. I would estimate at present an ammo crate will generally be used to replenish anywhere from 100 to 300 charges worth of ammo, so maybe 200 would be good maximum? Not sure, probably needs playtesting to nail down something that’s helpful but doesn’t provide too much. 200 would be my pick for a starting point at least.

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Close but no. It means you should only drop an ammo crate when more than one person is at orange or red ammo and you don’t have a medstation coming up. This is because medstations often are at crucial points in the map and have a lot of ammo around. It means when someone drops one, you can be a bit more free with ammo usage, but the point is that you top up and move on.

install scoreboard mods to see who took ammo, but this generally isn’t even an issue at higher difficulties once people realise you’re only supposed to take from them once and get chewed out for stealing ammo a couple times. Players generally get the hint.

Actually in practice most people learn to drop them in elevators that commonly have big ambient spawns after them by the time you get to a difficulty where it’s kinda necessary to have good ammo and crate usage. If they don’t know that, generally they’re not carrying their weight in other ways and ammo is the least of your team’s problems.

This would actually incentivise the behaviour you talk about where people would camp an ammo crate and shoot as much as possible like they sometimes do at the end of a level when someone drops an ammo crate.

Actually, again, as you play more you’ll realise that if someone drops the ammo crate when it’s not efficient, everyone generally understands they are the one that screwed up.

Actually it would mean that your gunlugger ogryn can clear 5 bosses an ambient spawn of ragers, a dog wave and an ambush horde all without caring about letting go of left click.

This is clearly said without ever having played damnation or hi shock heresy. Or played with 2 weapon specialist vets and a gunlugger ogryn on your team. You’re basically deciding that nobody should play a gun build because you don’t want to install a scoreboard mod that will tell you that actually most players know not to pick up a big ammo pack when there’s only 1 and they’re missing a single bullet.

Look I mean this in the most well meaning manner, but just play more. Play on damnation. Play till you hit 200 with a character and know the maps well enough to know when your team is probably out of ammo based solely on the sound of their guns, their class choices, and how many specialists have spawned. The stuff you’re talking about is almost entirely solved for by playing more and occasionally saying “please don’t waste the ammo crate there’s a medstation in 20 metres around that corner” and the other person apologises and doesn’t do it again.

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Must have missed thread mentioning that, and there’s a mod for it too! Kinda flashy tho.

Don’t use unless needed and don’t pick till your ready to leave area

Ah yes, an issue near and dear to my heart: Overcomplicated Horsesh*t: Why Darktide's Systems Make No Sense - #48 by CH3DD4R_G0B-L1N

This changes might ruin how Havoc handle’s ammo creates (They replenish 40% of your max ammo per use)

ammo crates need to have a charge indicator its ridiculous how often ive had people in lower threat levels double tap

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Agreed. The lack of an indicator is the only issue I have with crates. I think people would still double-dip, but it’d sure help prioritizing charges.

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id like to think its because people dont know how they work since 99% of the double dipping i saw was in mortis trials not auric or higher

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Why the heck are you acting like it’s crucial to get 100% efficiency out of a bloody deployable?
You drop the thing down, everyone gets 1 grab. You get more if someone passes while high at ammo or is already rushing way ahead/can’t reach it anymore. Done deal, problem solved without pondering this nonsense that’s meant to not waste a single bullet ever. (As if it matters.)

You wrote up a solution for an issue that doesn’t exist outside your mind or maybe the lowest of difficulties.

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Get this dude away from the winter grain

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no

Love this take. Players hold in attempt to find the best possible value, thus wasting the best possible opportunity to drop ammo. This goes especially in hand with medkits.

Allow players to pick backup ammo crates dropped. This will drastically change how ammo is consumed and would be intersting to see the effects for a period of time.

An additional effect of being apply to re-supply an ammo crate by picking up ammo (allowing one player to refil the crate to then use for everyone else later) I would go as far as requiring an animation to refil, but this is above and beyond anything I can see implemented.

Normally I’m all for UI QoL but I think the prisoner’s dilemma here is good rather than poor design (or at least intentioned). Maybe it could be explained better but I think it’s not so complicated that you can’t pick up on it organically with time. If there was an in-game bestiary, loading screen tips or whatnot that would be a good place for it – one can dream…

You’re right that it can punish greedy/inattentive players but that’s all the more reason to use the HUD and sound cues available to you. The team not getting optimal ammo from a deployable should remain a valid option imo.

HOWEVER there should be some in-game indication that a Veteran has taken the improved ammo kit perk. Can’t be wasting the opportunity to spam nukes now :face_savoring_food:

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I personally would like this change, just due to the feel of it. Pulling out a percentage based on a percentage makes sense to me, I need 80% of my ammo, I pull out 80% from the crate. It would actively function exactly like a medpack but for ammo, medpacks having 500hp in their pool and healing that amount (or existing for a certain amount of time in their case) then vanishing. Ammo crates functioning the exact same way I don’t think would be that big a deal.

Granted, I get the game design around it. It’s meant to encourage more team play, get people to pay attention to other players ammo and only take if they need it/think they’ll use it well. One can see it in Havoc especially where the Vet is pretty much the only one taking the ammo, and maybe one charge will go to the Zealot or something. But having it just be a percentage hit would be nice to me, and then maybe in Havoc you take 40% of the percentage you would have taken, so that you still can ration out the ammo appropriately.

One could also just add in the feed ‘X took from the ammo crate’ (in base game/not using a mod), but ‘tHaT woULd bE ToxIc’ so we can’t have that, even though it would be useful info to know, as you could actively tell other rejects ‘hay, that hing has 4 charges and you just eat 2, one of us don’t get ammo now’ and if they aren’t a troll they can say ‘sorry I didn’t know’. But, alas one just has to download the mod that puts that thing in chat when it happens, or just do as I do and if I need ammo on my class, I carry around the first Ammo Crate I see (as most don’t really tend to look for them) and use it when I feel it’s appropriate, either as I need ammo (if the team hardly uses it) or when I see all players are at orange and red including myself. Is the main solution I found to ‘more often than not work’, as you most often just need a hit of an ammo crate to get you through a mission anyway (especially if there’s even just one staff psyker).

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the issue is with that itll insensitive camping it if they added a 5 minute timer as well that wouldnt an issue per say but then you would also need a percentage identifier.

and also the sweats who play solo runs and knife charge around a room for 20 minutes killing one disabler a turn wouldnt really like the 5 minute timer idea

They also don’t use ammo, so I fail the see the issue.

But yeah, as the OP stated the amount would need to be adjusted to account for this, but the game is designed around constantly moving forward, so one would eventually have to leave an ammo crate behind. Even in the cases of being in the last room/being in mortis, the ammo crate sits there infinitely until people use it anyway, so forcing ‘one hit per team mate’ seems a bit strange when Psykers exist, Zealots and Melee Ogryns who actively never use there gun exist, so letting them still take from the thing just to top of knives/get a clip or two while still allowing a hit or two from a veteran doesn’t feel the worst to me.

But, I say this all while never really running into ammo problems even in mortis with the current system, I just think the change wouldn’t be so heavily detrimental as people are making it out to be.

I think it would be sufficient to add a voice line to address ammo overdraw – always nice to hear banter and it would be nicely informative besides.

Plus there’s reasons why you would spam ammo that would make a notification feel out of place imo.

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True, a ‘You over there stealing all the ammo?’ call out when a party member takes from the crate while others are at lower ammo than them would probably be a sufficient change. And generally thematic too.

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as you could actively tell other rejects ‘hay, that hing has 4 charges and you just eat 2, one of us don’t get ammo now’ and if they aren’t a troll they can say ‘sorry I didn’t know’. But, alas one just has to download the mod that puts that thing in chat when it happens, or just do as I do and if I need ammo on my class, I carry around the first Ammo Crate I see (as most don’t really tend to look for them) and use it when I feel it’s appropriate, either as I need ammo (if the team hardly uses it) or when I see all players are at orange and red including myself.

Nail on head. The informing players of how the crate works has a 99% fail rate for me.

So, now, my best option is to take a slightly toxic approach of determining myself to be the arbiter of ammo usage and deciding when the team gets the privilege of having a crate deployed. And that most likely becomes “when I need ammo” based on how I’ve assessed the team is playing.

Not a responsibility I want, but one the game has forced on my ranged classes.

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You’re thinking about this way too much.

Its a basic ammo refill mechanic that is best utilized with team efficiency over individual and most importantly at a time when you need to magdump ie a boss or a tough horde. The TIMING of when an ammocrate is used is much stronger than the ability to refill players ammo if it means 3 players can reassuringly go ham on a hard encounter when necessary rather than skipping through Tertium and basically findign a big ammo pack (unless everyones yellow/red OBVIOUSLY. I hate how I have to state this).

I hate the way the word efficiency is used in common vernacular too these days though.