Map layout variations

From time to time, a undocumented map change is added into a map. For example, there has been changes made in the Excise Vault map middle event. Whenever I see this, I always hope that there will be added branches to move forward through into the game, that’ll give different ways to reach said middle event and end event of any given map.

Example for this is that the already existing route to move forward would be path A, but a path B and C could also be added, either have some of them blocked off and unavailable or give the players a chance to open a path, much like how explosives work in the newer maps.

I’d also like if the maps felt more “alive”, just having enemies and friendly NPC fighting in the distance or having underhive critters moving about, not even being enemies to fight but just showing that there is life and movement. Another part to make it feel like we’re not alone on the map is that we’d be able to receive help from NPC operatives, now I don’t really mean this in a “fighting” sense, but just having another operative team open up a door, blowing down a wall or lowering a bridge for us to cross.

Both of the formentioned points could also be used to change what events happens on a map, for example on Commsplex, instead of having to send the message we’d be tasked to shut down the skyfire defenses, and I don’t mean this by just flipping the switch, but it would actually move us to a different path where we would either have to hack or destroy the targeting systems so that the NPC team can be extracted once they’re done.

Same map, but the middle event instead. Instead of a hack and wait, we’d be ambushed by a Scab Captain and some troopers, and be a small boss fight event instead of the wait for servoskull and elevator. And then have another NPC team help us move forward on another branch.

While not as important, it is something that does however annoy me. And that is how loot chests and items are located on the map, having jarring yellow chests placed around the area feels wrong. I’d like to have more variation of containers for loot, more fitting to the map itself. I would also like that the ammunition you pick up has a appropriate “skin” for the weapon you are wielding.

Or/and you could add, for a lack of a better word, outposts which are guarded by enemies but does contain loot which they have scavenged around the area, so that you’d find ammuntions, stimms, crafting resources and so on. However giving more precise location on which to get resources, even guarded, might mean we’d have to see a cut in overall available ammo for example.

Also having supply drops happen as a random event on maps would add another way to gather resources, having on more open maps an airdrop with ammo or having them packed in crates sent down in elevators. These drops could even be tied to specialist items not found else where on the map, like new ammo types or support items.

Some of this has been mentioned by others in some shape or form, but it is still something that I hope that fatshark takes into consideration.

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They did varying paths here and there in VT2, and I loved it. And I think the real secret sauce that DT is missing right now is high quality procedural map generation to complement the depth and breadth of the combat system.

With the roguelike mode in VT2, Chaos Wastes, being so well-received, I think there’s good reason to be hopeful we’ll be getting something similar sooner rather than later.

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I hope so aswell, but I’d still like to see some more polish on the maps in general.

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Yes, this 100%.

I cannot understand Fatshark’s fixation on static linear maps. I would hope that the Tide envelope could be pushed in 2024.

With how much work they put into character customisation and builds to min/max variety it is surprising that they keep the part of the game you spend the most time looking at and walking through the exact same thing from the exact same perspective every time you repeat a mission exactly the same, or in some cases worse than VT2.

This game needs dynamic-ness in its maps of some kind, whether that is many pathways, or pathways randomly opened or blocked, or huge open maps with randomly placed objectives, or maps generated from canned map chunks, or so on.

It would help a lot with the stale feeling, as well as improving player retention, while reducing complaints between big content updates.

WWE McMahon angry

What do you expect them to do? Rip out everything they did so far and start anew?

Wow, what a great and thoughtful reply. It’s no wonder I had you blocked.

I don’t quite understand the Stink McMahon gif, I must admit!

But, according to the EDGE article we were discussing in The Crafting Memorial, the levels were made in composable chunks. Perfect for proc-gen placement to create quality levels with some spicy randomness. So we’d get the benefit of beautiful, intricate level design and randomization.

Not really. I’d be happy if they merely built a few branching pathways with and odd room or two and then rejoining the original layout. Having some of them blocked off and give them the option to be opened so that it would not just be the same path every time. Also mixing up the middle and end events so that they’re also not just the same each time, either in the same place as now or in one of the new branching paths.

OMG. This!

I think the art director would have a throm, mind you. They were already upset that everyone speed runs through without looking at their (admittedly, pretty impressive I think) scenery. Procedurally generated though… woo… big ask. But can you imagine infinite levels?

Yeah. I got excited there. But I reckon that’s too hard.

I wish we got more insight into the dev process – I feel it is where the real passion of a team can be seen, geeks geeking out over the cool stuff they’ve helped create – but what little we do know (largely from that pre-launch EDGE article I keep bringing up) suggests that procedural map generation may be closer to reality than I dare to hope:

The choice to tell a story that will advance over time has clearly put Fatshark’s developers under some pressure to develop missions and levels more quickly than they could for the Vermintide series, the longevity of which (its committed players commonly rank up over 1,000 hours) rather took the studio by surprise. The solution was to build the game in a more modular way. Designers produce chunks of level, then join five or six together to create a mission. Chunks can intersect each other, creating a bigger overall zone, so that several missions can criss-cross a single zone. Further, mission logic - rules for encounters and other mission-defining scripting - are disconnected from the level topography, so the same spaces can host multiple missions.

The world is therefore flexible, its spaces home to different encounters - not that the level designers will know precisely how they’ll play out. “The first thing we tell new designers is that they’ll have no control,” Magnuson says. “You will not be placing any enemies, just creating the possibility for cool things to happen.”

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Unfortunately none of that was written by the devs, as you can see it’s not in quotes.

under some pressure to develop missions and levels more quickly than they could for the Vermintide… The solution was to build the game in a more modular way.
Designers produce chunks of level, then join five or six together to create a mission. Chunks can intersect each other, creating a bigger overall zone, so that several missions can criss-cross a single zone. Further, mission logic - rules for encounters and other mission-defining scripting - are disconnected from the level topography, so the same spaces can host multiple missions.

It’s a little hard to grasp what they are saying here as the interviewer is paraphrasing what a dev said or showed them. There could also be some misunderstanding on the interviewers part.

It can be read in a way that is accurate to what we got, they make levels in chunks for ease of production then string them together as one locked in level. They are then able to take one of those chunks and reuse it in another string to save some time.

What doesnt make sense to me however is the idea that this is a significant solution to developing levels quickly, or why even bother using the phrase “modular” since only maybe 1 of those “5 or 6 chunks” actually connects to anything or gets reused, the rest are never reused. As we saw with the track record rate of levels Fatshark has put out it appears it isn’t much of a solution…

It could be a solution, just have us start on one existing level played backwards, and end on another existing level played backwards with no or maybe one or two new chunks and a bunch of different objective. They could relatively quickly double the number of missions by doing this… But they haven’t done this, all the stuff we get is almost entirely made up of new chunks with very little reuse meaning every level we get is laboriously intensive in the same way VT2 levels were.

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LOL what a slaaaam dunk, kindred! :rofl: But, seriously, that’s why I wouldn’t hold FS to anything this snippet implies.

Oh, look, derpherp gets it!

The levels are dense with detail and content. Reusing even 1/6 for a level would mean a lot of saved time. The sense I get from the levels we’ve been getting in different zones is that FS is pushing for more variety (oft requested by the community) rather than leaning harder on chunk reuse.

In a mode like Chaos Wastes, elevators and other tricks could be used to connect almost any chunk from any zone. It’d be glorious! And that would be much more difficulty if they weren’t made that way.

plz gib!

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