Make Grims worth it! They are a redundant

I’d love to see some changes around tomes and grims on both the difficulty and the rewards.

I have finished full book runs with 11 loot dies while getting general chests while on the flip side have my whole team die losing every single book and grim in the process and also get general chests. So why bother with the grims ? Ultimately though I couldn’t care less about the chests anymore as I have all the reds I’ll ever need.
The reason I go full book runs is for the feeling of having bested the mission just as I strive for never taking damage. For players like myself that play a lot I feel like there needs some end game content besides getting better.
Grims could be the gateway to said content if reworked.
The curse is great tough I haven’t felt it’s impact for a long time as I hardly ever get hit which makes it somewhat redundant. So instead of just being cursed with less health it could also make the enemies tougher adding that lost health from each grim to the enemies. Adding to that enemies could now come in higher numbers with more specials etc as they feel the energies from the books which they themselves seek. Stamina on the player/players holding the grims could also be affected to in some way or anohter. Another option could be that the curse only affects the grims bearers and also makes them targets for enemies/specials more so than the other players. I feel like this would push players to work much more as a team. But in any way or form getting grims should make the game much harder and also riskier.
Whenever I play any kind of rpg etc I always play hardcore because it adds an element of caution that vanilla players will never experience. they don’t give 2 ***** about dying cause they’ll just respawn and continue. Hardcore play enhances the game experience by 100%. Every time you meet a boss or heck just a large group of enemies youre on your heels frantically doing your best not to die - It’s a thrill! Now I’m not saying there should be a hardcore mode in this game although I would be the first to join but the idea behind it cold be transported into vermintide.
So besides making the curse more impactfull with harder hordes and possibly affecting the party as a whole or just the bearers with more curses failing the mission should have an effect on the character they used. If we go by the games logic where players don’t die, they simply get captured and bound I don’t think it’s as stretch to assume that when they escaped they didn’t nessecaryly get all their equipment with them. Instead of a ranald rolling the dice to see what chest players get he now rolls to see if any equipment was lost during the mission. Each grim carried could add a certain percentage onto ranalds dice roll making it more likely to lose equipment.

Risk Vs reward
With higher risk they should be higher rewards.
If the above idea is implemented then now players will be cautious to grab the grims and hopefully play more conservatively and ultimately stick more together which is what vermintide 2 is all about.
This newfound and never tried or seen before type of play where the players work as a unit instead of 4 players randomly trotting around not caring where the others are or what they are doing and basically just trying to win the race should ofc be well, rewarded.
A new chest type - grim chests could be implemented where new rewards could be given.
These rewards could be anything but it would have to be something only found in grim chests and with an extremely low chance. Grim chests should be the same as a emp chest with the only difference that they have a very VERY small chance of giving something unique.

“but not everybody would be able to complete grim runs then and then they wouldn’t be able to get the chest and special loot - Everybody should be able to get the special loot”

  • No they shouldn’t! Everybody should be able to try and do their best just as everybody can try the different diffuculties but not all can complete.

Long story short… Make grim runs matter !

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Grims do matter. You can take less hits that’s the grim challenge.
If full book runs are boring for you, you could try and combine them with deeds or twitch or move up a difficulty (if you play on legend for example).

If you have some friends or you don’t mind looking for randoms.on discords, you could try and do weaves.

I think grims are enough challenge in itself and you can make less mistakes becuase you have less hp, and when combined with difficult challenges they can be a huge difference.


Also one can ditch Curse resistance for something useful. I had plenty of fun playing pre-BBB WHC (100base HP) without the resistance - one stab from anyone and you’re down in a full-book run. Kinda sets your mind straight about playstyle priorities.

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I understand the grim challenge as it is now but what I’m proposing is making it harder and more diverse instead of just health loss all across the board. I find it boring and static.

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I do wanna add that holding something that attracts more enemies/ stronger enemies or has a chance to spawn an extra boss is a cool concept so no hate on that idea


That’s something I guess <3

But just on the top of your head why do you feel like my proposal is a bad idea ?

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Mostly the losing equipment part, people are already not liking the grind so making them lose gear would make alot of players mad, it’s a very hardcore idea tho. Abduction already exists and it’s not the most liked deed modifier, when combined with vanguard, dhdd it gets even more insane and frustrating. So i can’t imagine players grinding for gear and then losing even more gear then they can aquire, seems a bit too punishing to add to the main game.

I also think having less hp and losing a potion slot is plenty for a grim. Potions can carry runs, and less hp is ofcourse challenging because you cannot trade hits easily when needed, can’t play as aggresive, can’t make mistakes, you go down faster etc.

I do think your suggestions are good and could be added as a deed modifier later on, or some kind of new gamemode, or something you check before starting a game. I just think default grims shouldn’t be changed, as i think they are enough already as a ‘challenging modifier’ and you can work up to it gradually, first picking up tomes, then picking up 1 grim then 2 etc. I wouldn’t mind another item added to take with you, but that’s an entirly different discussion as it would mean another item to pick up.

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I used to agree but I guess it’s just me looking for ways to keep the game interesting. I wouldn’t have an issue with adding different collectables, books etc.

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I’m with @anon75893681 on this one. Your idea to spice up the grims is quite interesting, but losing equipment… I’d rather not.

I mean, I imagine most players who would be up for the extra challenge already have enough crafting materials to just craft a new one of whatever you lost. I think it would be more annoying than exciting.

And of course there’s the possibility we’d get a bunch of people joining games with some throwaway greens/blues hoping to get carried for the bonus reward while mostly avoiding the risk.

This could be quite interesting I think.
When you start a map with this modifier a Super Grimoire is placed on the ground ready to be picked up by a player.
It could cause all sorts of problems for the group and dying would lose the grim as usual, but successfully bringing it to the end would give an extra reward.

Perhaps one of the proposed Grim chests?


If you wanna make the game more interesting you may want to try modded realm.

Also 11 die and full books is certainly a guaranteed emp box so not sure how you only got a gen box outta that.

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Imagine if you could find cursed weapons and gear in grim chests or from grim runs.

Grim gear could consist of one curse and one positive effect. In the case of say an empire long bow having +10% chaos / + 10% monster it would then roll +20% chaos / -10% monster.
Regarding traits there could be a multitude of different curses that all give and take something. Swift slaying could add another 5 seconds or 5% speed but while doing so removing stamina recharge by 50%.
This would open up for more specialized build which I feel like the game is already pushing to do. Most people want all characters to be viable for solo runs and equally good at everything but thats not how its supposwed to be. Every character serves a nciche role in some way or another and by adding this idea those roles would be even more cemented. Bounty hunter is a boss killer with some ok horde clearing abilities with the right weapon and control. Imagine if he got +5-10 more dmg or critt chance against monsters or bosses as a grim gear bonus but lost 50% cleave. Would that be worth it? well that’s what makes it interesting isn’t it because ofcourse it would but only if there are horde clearing specialists with him.

Grim gear properties and traits should ofc be fixed. No rerolling

Im also sure that 11 die and full book run is way above the requirements for a guarantee top chest with no luck needed from ranalds.

However I do like the idea of your post OP and I would love to see modifiers on deeds for books.

What you are suggesting sounds good, on paper. In reality however, this would fall apart fairly quickly. Losing equipment? A big BIG no-no for most I think. Just think, what would happen if you couldn’t use one of your weapons? After all, weapons are the only pieces of equipment you have with you when you are revived. People have plenty of reasons to rage quit(no repercussions) without adding another one into the mix. If you want to see people stick together go into Cata. I am not saying that players are joined at the groin at that difficulty but they certainly have to stick closer together if they want to avoid getting overwhelmed during a horde for example.

There is much I feel like I could say regarding this post but I feel that the most constructive form of criticism I can offer is something along the lines of “An idea worth exploring but not in this format.” This grim rework of yours would offer greater challenge but this kind risk would not be worth it for some people and they would like to opt out if possible. And that’s where player choice comes in. At the moment, grims are a simple yes or no and that’s the end of it. Take it or leave it. Just like you have pointed out, you play RPGs on hardcore. A choice.

Currently the curse is easy to understand and obvious as to what it does. But people really like customising their own game play experience. What if you had another tab in the Inventory screen that would allow you to tweak how the curse affects you? At its weakest, nothing would change. Simple Max HP reduction. Make the curse stronger(increased HP reduction, penalty for throwing the grim, the grims takes up both of your potion slots… etc) in turn, your favour with Ranald increases. This way, both Hardcore and casual players would be satisfied. You get to have your challenge, while those who do not want it have the option of simply not messing around with the curse settings.

This seems quite excessive.

The changes you suggest seem like playing Sekiro but being dissatisfied with the highest difficulty and thus also ringing the big demon bell and ditching that charm to raise the struggle as much as possible.

But then getting to the point where you can clear even that easily enough so you start pestering the devs to buff just about every single enemy in the game for your own amusement, even if that kinda screws everyone else over.

Current grim system might not be all that inspired but simplicity has the charm of not causing all that many issue´s on the other hand, it wont make some enemy types ridiculously tough or cause bugs because some funky gimmick was addded.

So if you want more difficult stuff then ask for new modes or even a difficulty above cata, dont drag others into it <.<

Given the rate at which we get equipment, losing it is a crazy idea. Players would just quit when they go down or things look bad. And you can’t make people lose equipment upon quitting because disconnects happen all the time. No one would have gear progression anymore.

Hardcore play enhances the game experience by 100%.

It doesn’t. Abduction is one of the lamest modifiers on deeds. You either dont feel the impact, because no one ever died, or you get caught by random stuff and have to sit there watching for the next ten minutes. Its plain dumb.

felt it’s impact for a long time as I hardly ever get hit which makes it somewhat redundant.
4 players randomly trotting around
I feel like there needs some end game content besides getting better.

This sounds like you just found your comfort zone and should get to the next difficulty. Not getting hit by the 7 specials Cata throws at you at all time is basically impossible. Not sticking together is nothing but an invitation for the next triple Eshin spawn to take a turns in face hugging.

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Tomes and Grim’s are fine… they are not really that much of challenge provided you are comfortable on the difficulty setting (I am going to assume Legend. Since its the only difficulty really worth doing full book runs to grind for reds)

The Deed system is worthless and should not be apart of the chest loot.

A simple solution as well as much more interesting way to handle deeds as well as give players a new way of acquiring high end chests / loot, as well as challenge themselves would be to make Deeds a game mode that you can pick and choose modifiers as you wish. The harder modifiers and more modifiers you add will increase the quality as well as number of chests you receive (if you complete it)

From the menu you could simply pick Deeds > Select Map > Select modifiers > Play

*And yes you could make an option for Random Map > Random modifiers + number of modifiers as well

Furthermore adding content to this game mode would be as simple as adding additional modifiers that players can just select to add to their missions. And if they really want to make it nightmare fuel they could play Deed Mode with Twitch mode activated (LOL)

Pros: Customizable content, offers a direct and endlessly playable Risk vs Reward challenge, for long time players (don’t need loot anymore) allows them to practice and challange themselves against harder and more modifiers without hoping for deeds out of chests. Removes wasted loot slots (deeds) from chests

Cons: certain modifiers and maps could become good “farms” for increased loot reward which may be better than simply grinding QP or soloing maps, Menu coding? overlaying modifiers coding issues? I don’t really see a lot of downsides other than some modifiers being easier and thus a possible good farm method

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I think a downside is that it’s gonna be another seperate queu. We have deeds, twitch, weaves, weeklies and they are all pretty dead gamemodes in quickplay atleast. I do think adding the thing you suggested: ‘random modifier + quickplay map + random number of modifiers’ could work. But i’m wondering if that’s gonna be used by quickplayers and played over just farming legend for loot. The system will no doubt me usefull for premades.

Or do you suggest combining weekly modifiers + deeds + maybe weave winds all in one, so it’s one big queu and not seperate like it’s now?

As long as there is a way to select which of them the game should search for, I’d be fine with it.

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I’m not saying that all my proposed ideas would be viable. Heck i’m not even saying they are good.

I am however throwing out ideas that could spark an interest at the dev hq to make some changes in and around areas they might not themselves have had any ideas.

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