"Maccabian Mk V Duelling Sword" Does NOT Have the Cleave to Activate "Rampage" in Damnation

[simpliv]

This isn’t a bug because there simply isn’t enough Cleave for the weapon to actually activate the “Rampage” Blessing.

The only thing I can cleave more than 2 of are Groaners. I can’t even cleave more than 2 Poxwalkers to benefit from one of the weapon’s only three good Blessings.

I’d like to think my Duelling Sword is at its peak for what I want it for:

Unfortunately for all of us Psykers, not only does the Duelling Sword weapon set have horrendous options for Blessings, its base strengths are so weak that it’s not even really worth taking for any reason but to be used as a dodge stick.

It can certainly maul Maniacs and is particularly adept at killing Mutants, but all of the other drawbacks are not worth taking this weapon over a Force Sword or Combat Axe or anything else with actual staying power.

[alsozara]

Note the push attack cleave.

Honestly duelling swords are slightly under tuned but mostly had their niche eaten hard by Deimos and got hard power crept by Illisi. They do need a light buff though, I’d take dagger over DS on Psyker 9 times in 10.

Also Rampage is +40% damage for throwing some push attacks in there. Come on calling that “horrendous” is more than a bit of a stretch.

[simpliv]

@alsozara

Also Rampage is +40% damage for throwing some push attacks in there. Come on calling that “horrendous” is more than a bit of a stretch.

I can’t find any justification where the only way I can activate Rampage is by push attack spam, especially when no other weapon with Rampage has this issue. This is a clear issue with them having copy-pasted many of the Blessings and not tuning any of them, as was demonstrated months later on many other weapons.

I wouldn’t call them “slightly undertuned” with its current competitors. It has no real place to exist in its gimmick currently. It’s just not a good weapon no matter how much I roll it and test it. I want it to be a good weapon, but it is not a good weapon.

[alsozara]

@simpliv

I can’t find any justification where the only way I can activate Rampage is by push attack spam,

It’s once every 3 seconds, which with how fast this weapon attacks falls into a pretty natural rotation, push attack is a pretty natural part of this weapon’s usual attack rotation to leverage the weapon’s speed and push attacks cleave for a bit better control. I increasingly feel like you’re complaining about a weapon you don’t actually use much or understand, which you’re obviously entitled to. However, in my experience good feedback about underperforming weapons almost inevitably comes from people who’ve taken the time to master them eg @Reginald and their various chain weapon posts where they’ve actually used and tested those weapons extensively. So even if we agreed the weapons needs major buffs at best we could hope someone who is intimately familiar with the weapon comes in and gives a good take on it.

@simpliv

I wouldn’t call them “slightly undertuned” with its current competitors. It has no real place to exist in its gimmick currently. It’s just not a good weapon no matter how much I roll it and test it. I want it to be a good weapon, but it is not a good weapon

Really does depend on whether or not you consider Deimos and Illisi overtuned. Before their existence it saw not extensive, but still substantial use. Again I agree it’s a little under powered but if it was working well enough for Damn before (it was) it’s not that far off a good spot.

Actually if we really wanna talk under powered it’d be a strong agree from me for the non V variants of the DS. That just kinda seems to be how variants often are sadly. 1 of them is just much better than the others.

[SlenderBarracuda]

Just an aside, I really wish Vet had access to these, the description (when we had them) mentioned a guard officer, (I think that’s who it was) and they would make an awesome powersword skin. “Commissar’s powersword” skin.

I mean, it’s suppose to be a dueling sword, but the skin is really more of a light military saber.

[alsozara]

Good point, I’d honestly love to have these on Vet. Their high mobility melee options are like what knife and taxes? Having something fast and mobile but also with decent reach would be a nice option.

[simpliv]

@alsozara

It’s once every 3 seconds, which with how fast this weapon attacks falls into a pretty natural rotation, push attack is a pretty natural part of this weapon’s usual attack rotation to leverage the weapon’s speed and push attacks cleave for a bit better control.

I don’t think this is correct. After using it for a few missions and, pushing toward your persistent desire to uphold its push attack as the solution, I found two immediate issues with it:

• Push attacks already use a limited resource for mobility, contradicting the weapon’s strengths,
• Push attacks don’t help its already miserable cleave, creating a lack of synchronicity with Rampage,
• And push attacks can be interrupted, albeit blocking attacks, and even stopped completely due to the weapon’s very limited stamina.

This presents an immediate issue that I mention about its mobility. Mobility is one of the best features of this weapon, yet at its base it has an extremely limited stamina pool. Obviously you can solve this with a Stamina curio, but assuming we’re playing into what’s good in Damnation, you aren’t going to see a lot of Psykers using Stamina curios. They’re probably the extreme minority.

I don’t even really want to entertain the idea of anyone getting things like Block Efficiency. If I have to spend a lot of Stamina to keep Rampage up, I have no defense in return.

This weapon wasn’t designed for cleave. It has no anti-horde, and makes it an incredibly poor choice for a Psyker’s general melee use. I would assume that “substantial use” of this weapon prior to the new Force Swords is probably an idealistic way to put it, when the main weapon being used by any Psyker was an Antax Combat Axe or an Obscurus Force Sword.

For as long as I played I can’t remember a substantial use of the Duelling Sword. It never stood out as a pick for most Psykers and by the time those players who like it get to Damnation, it starts to fall off as a viable weapon immediately.

Why does it have Rampage if it’s not designed for cleaving? Why can’t it have Headtaker instead? It is because they don’t want to give the Duelling Sword any +Power Blessings, obviously, but there are more synergistic Blessings to give it.

Even with 6 Warp Charges and +25% damage from high Peril, the damage output of this weapon is so pitifully low. What good Blessings it has falls off very quickly compared to many other Blessings abroad.

If this weapon is supposed to specialize in weakspot hits and even critical hits, going solely based on its available Blessings, then why does it have such terrible innate bonuses to both?

Saltzpyre’s Rapier in Vermintide 2 did just fine being both a headshot-oriented weapon and having a proper amount of cleave to be a strongly versatile weapon. No idea why they gave it cleave, but I can imagine virtually no one would use it if it didn’t. Just like the Hatchet.

@alsozara

Really does depend on whether or not you consider Deimos and Illisi overtuned.

Illisi is stupendously overtuned*. I would immediately argue that it’s a far better Power Sword in both its activation time and its damage output. It has a massive cleave and a very easy attack pattern. Its damage still is bursty enough to quickly take care of most all Elites, where the Duelling Sword is only kind of good at—mainly just Maniacs.

*I also want to point out that you can clear Damnation with an Illisi as a decently-rolled grey. It does not need anything extra to outperform most weapons in the game right now.

Which is fine. High Maniac damage is extremely meta given that almost all Specialists—especially all Disablers but the Pox Hound—are Maniacs. Even then two solid hits to the head will kill Pox Hounds.

But why would I take a Duelling Sword for that purpose when an Antax Combat Axe can do the same amount of damage just with its lights? And then also cleave infinitely with Brutal Momentum? And if I’m not taking Brutal Momentum, the Antax still functionally has the same amount of cleave.

Obviously I don’t appreciate your condescending tone.

[MarxistDictator]

Why does every conversation need to go back to ‘its not an axe, it doesn’t hit and stagger more enemies than a power sword’. Brutal momentum shouldn’t even be doing that, and it doesn’t anywhere besides an axe. Anyway I think most Psykers run stamina because the poor base stamina hides how benefitting the stamina system Psyker actually is. You can recover stamina while sliding, so you never hit the fatigued sprint speed your class is supposed to be cursed with for mobility. Stamina is a pretty situational setup besides Psyker. And depending on the Defense stat of your MKV you can easily have 6+ push attacks on 1 +3 curio. Its the other sabers that suck, Mk 5 is one of the few outlying decent weapons in the game.

[simpliv]

@MarxistDictator

Why does every conversation need to go back to ‘its not an axe, it doesn’t hit and stagger more enemies than a power sword’. Brutal momentum shouldn’t even be doing that, and it doesn’t anywhere besides an axe.

Because this is what we’re given to compare to. It exists and can’t be ignored. Would I like to see Brutal Momentum nerfed? Yes. Most everyone else definitely does not. What if they gave it to the Duelling Sword? That would certainly be nice if BM never gets nerfed. But I don’t think it will happen.

Everything comes back to combat axes because they’re de facto the best versatile weapon in the game. This wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t a universal weapon, but again, we can’t ignore it.

@MarxistDictator

Anyway I think most Psykers run stamina because the poor base stamina hides how benefitting the stamina system Psyker actually is. You can recover stamina while sliding, so you never hit the fatigued sprint speed your class is supposed to be cursed with for mobility.

I know that Psyker has the best stamina recovery in the game, but in situations where I’m in the thick of it and having to deal with hordes, elites, and specialists, this weapon just falls apart. It’s certainly amazing in situations where I’m only dealing with small groups of enemies, but you can’t really ever prepare for that.

Would I take +2/3 Stamina with the Duelling Sword? Yes! I think anyone should if they want to use the weapon, but would I recommend Duelling Sword as a mainline? Not really. Right now I’m against the weapon and I’ve used it enough to determine that, despite some spit in my eye suggesting otherwise.

[alsozara]

@simpliv

Obviously I don’t appreciate your condescending tone.

The only thing I said that I could see being condescending is suggesting you’re commenting on a weapon you barely use, which you’ve all but admitted. I don’t feel bad about strongly suggesting one should use a weapon heavily before making a balance thread on it. That seems like common sense.

@simpliv

I don’t think this is correct. After using it for a few missions and, pushing toward your persistent desire to uphold its push attack as the solution, I found two immediate issues with it:

• Push attacks already use a limited resource for mobility, contradicting the weapon’s strengths,
• Push attacks don’t help its already miserable cleave, creating a lack of synchronicity with Rampage,
• And push attacks can be interrupted, albeit blocking attacks, and even stopped completely due to the weapon’s very limited stamina.

Just like knife Psyker you run peril block for basically infinite pushing, circumventing guard break ever being a risk and generally letting you use stamina with complete impunity. Push attack literally has triple the cleave of other attacks so while it might not have as much as you want, saying it doesn’t help with cleave doesn’t make much sense. I’ve run it a bunch and to be clear while it definitely feels a bit anemic in DPS, built sensibly none of the things you’ve raised (basically stamina and safety) should be any kind of issue. Also stamina is genuinely a pretty good curio blessing for Psyker, not triple stacking or anything, but having one is very good.

To clear a few things up I definitely agree it’s not as good as its niche as Saltz Rapier, and I agree it could use more decent blessings, not because the ones it has are bad so much as because there aren’t really many good options besides the two you have on yours. Crit chance on dodge is kinda OK I guess. I like running DS with rending trauma that kinda makes the rending blessing on DS itself obsolete, but generally you don’t have many options at all.

@simpliv

But why would I take a Duelling Sword for that purpose when an Antax Combat Axe can do the same amount of damage just with its lights? And then also cleave infinitely with Brutal Momentum? And if I’m not taking Brutal Momentum, the Antax still functionally has the same amount of cleave

I tune out whenever combat axe is brought up as a comparison point frankly. Very few melee weapons currently compete with Caxe, it’s an asinine comparison. What does DS bring generally? Very very high mobility, almost knife level sprinting with absurdly large dodges, while still maintaining some cleave and having good reach which are things you sacrifice with knife for that mobility. By all means yes axe is better in most ways and you can just play axe only if that’s what you want just probably don’t bother to comment on balance if that’s your main comparison point. I’m increasingly convinced Caxe needs to be nuked so we can have meaningful balance discussions again.

Again I’m not against gentle buffs but it ain’t bad, just outcompeted, at some point there you have to ask if it’s the problem or if what is overshadowing it is the issue.

Edit:

@simpliv

Right now I’m against the weapon and I’ve used it enough to determine that, despite some spit in my eye suggesting otherwise.

You didn’t even know you activate rampage with push attack? I don’t know how you’d expect people to interpret that regarding your knowledge/experience with the weapon. I didn’t suggest you’d never used it either, just that good balance feedback usually comes from people with something close to mastery of a weapon, not someone who’s still missing fundamentals of using it. I can’t fathom how that’s a hot take.

[simpliv]

@alsozara

The only thing I said that I could see being condescending is suggesting you’re commenting on a weapon you barely use, which you’ve all but admitted.

I’ve used it for a while. It has been in and out of my loadouts across the 200 or so hours I’ve put into Psyker. I tell myself, “Maybe I just need to roll a better one,” until I do, and realize its overall output isn’t that good. I’ve come to the conclusion on my own that the other variants aren’t good. It’s a skill weapon that makes me go, “I’m not having fun with this.” because the use of it isn’t matching the flow of the game.

I did what you suggested explicitly after the fact just to cover my bases. I already knew push attack has more cleave, but I didn’t fathom that I would need to spam it to make the weapon work. Even after the fact, I dislike this weapon even more.

I found that the tedium of it isn’t fun and the upkeep far exceeds what you can actually get out of Rampage being active. That was the conclusion I’ve made before. That’s the conclusion I’ve made again. It’s probably a conclusion I’ll keep making.

But I keep bringing up fun, which is a very subjective thing to go on. I can focus that into the fact that what I need to do to make Rampage work, without just giving the weapon a workable amount of cleave through base stats or cleave Blessings, requires so many more inputs that aren’t enjoyable. Those inputs can also just be interrupted in bad situations, making it entirely suboptimal.

Could I have had a different opinion while using a +3 Stamina? I can certainly try that tomorrow. That is the only thing I haven’t done, because I don’t have a good one that I feel can safely replace any of my current Curios.

It has strengths, but those strengths don’t separate very far from its weaknesses. I’ve already went out of my way to explain what I think is decent about it, but its highs aren’t very high at all beyond its mobility.

[Jonboy]

@alsozara

hard power crept by Illisi.

This for me.

Other than the ‘fun’ aspect (ymmv) of learning strike patterns of others weapons, it just feels like hard work as far as I can see?

I did try the duelling sword briefly, but I don’t really “get it”. And to make it work to an average level it sounds like you need blessings and a stamina curio?

Maybe I’ll try it again. But take an Illisi with Slaughterer and you can literally macro-bind light attack for mindless/effortless horde clear, and it’s still good on power attack vs maniacs. You then get to choose your other blessing and perk, making it more interesting /versatile.

Anyway, the comments on the C-Axe were pertinent. It’s just so ubiquitous. As much as everyone loathes a balance patch, we’re really due one and if done with some thought would really open up the game again*

(*subject to one round of free weapon unlocks)

[alsozara]

Well obviously I’m not here to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t find fun. And again I’m not saying I wouldn’t enjoy a small bump up for them. An errmmm… considerably larger bump for the non Mk V variants that one quickly finds out from using them simply don’t dish out enough damage to be particularly practical.

Regarding setup for it I think 1 stamina curio is nice but by no means necessary, though probably a little more necessary if not running peril block. I have generally enjoyed it with trauma but that setup just suits me as someone who enjoys playing Psyker as a kinda flex mid to close range range brawler, with KB covering for when I really need things at range to die and Ogryn elites, plus the high mobility high stam builds having great revive ability for unreliable PUGs is something I really appreciate.

@Jonboy Honestly as much as I think some of these are outliers I’m just exhausted with balance stuff generally especially the general state of blessings. I lament what build crafting could have been if blessings weren’t mostly just a game of chasing the few ones that massively outclass the others.

[MarxistDictator]

Dueling swords could definitely use a balance pass but at least MK5 has more usability than 60% of melee options on Psyker. The assassin light attacks and the special stab are pretty trash unfortunately. Every saber needs a follow up attack that has damage scale like a heavy, even MK5 its only just slightly useful now that you can stack enough power through your passives for stab-L3 headshots to kill all scab enemies with no perks (the thing Deimos does out the box with just L1). The light attacks should definitely control more enemies than they do. The stabs on the other 2 sabers are woefully underpowered, but the heavy strikes on the MK5 are decent and even able to headshot enemies from behind since they overhead.

[simpliv]

I’ve been sticking with this Duelling Sword for more missions this time. I’ve experimented with all of my breakpoints with it before, and did so again, and cultivated the necessary playstyle to make the weapon feel decent at the behest of this discussion.

I finally rolled a +3 Stamina that doesn’t compromise my current Perk setup, and the weapon definitely feels more consistent now. My overall criticism of the weapon certainly hasn’t changed, I feel like.

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Cleave is still just such a huge issue for me, and I think that this point is more about how the devs approached the design of cleave for most weapons.

My ideal outlook is that every weapon in the game is buffed to have a cleave cap minimum of 3.0. It isn’t necessarily that a weapon can kill 3 enemies per swing (and it shouldn’t), but that it can effectively control at least 3 enemies at a time without leaving you totally helpless in hordes.

And when you compare 3.0 to cleave weapons that start at 6.5 or higher and easily jump to 13 or even 25 with Power and Cleave Blessings, it really isn’t that much to ask for.

(A good example of this is Zealot’s Thunder Hammer. The weapon is a tool of destruction for single-target enemies, but it’s a versatile anti-horde CC weapon with an extremely bad damage cleave. In all technicalities it is an “assassin” weapon like the Tactical Axes or the Catachan Knife, but you can’t really expect a knife or tactical axe to control an entire horde like that.)

The design of the game revolves around its overwhelming numbers and crowd control—less so in Darktide compared to Vermintide 2, where stagger is king.

So I think making all kinds of weapons really bad at doing the bare minimum of keeping you safe in a horde is a little appalling to me. It makes it feel like the strengths aren’t worth it to take the weapon.

You can certainly compromise this with an effective anti-horde ranged weapon, which in this case is the Purgatus for me. But if at any point I’m using a melee weapon and a horde shows up, I shouldn’t feel like I can’t use the weapon because I can’t do anything with it.

(And even then, poke weapons that are given “wide” or “relentless” attacks in their combos still have those particular attacks capped at the same cleave. It is an important distinction, yet their cleave isn’t reflected by their purpose.)

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Damage of the weapon is low. It’s not cripplingly so low that you can’t do anything with the weapon itself, but it certainly needs a light damage bump to help with consistency.

Even when I’m at 6 Warp Charges and +25% damage with high Peril, attacks feel so weak and that really hinders the feel and fun of the weapon for me.

I’d say even a +10-15 damage increase would help the weapon a lot as it plays into all of the percent increases you can achieve as Psyker.

If the Dueling Sword is supposed to emphasize “Assassin” with critical strikes and weakspot hits, the stats don’t seem to reflect that. An innate bump to both of these would seriously help out the weapon and make it feel more fun to use in that regard, especially if it’s supposed to be a unique cousin to the Catachan Knife.

And while I’m going on about stats, it’s peculiar that the Duelling Sword has a cleave cap of 2.0 but has a focus on Cleave Damage as a modifiable stat.

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The available Blessings are so contrite that it’s almost insulting. My complaints with cleave and the weapon’s damage could easily be solved by better Blessing options, but in my current approach to the design of Darktide, I think weapons at their base should be stronger and shouldn’t need Blessings to feel good to use.