Losing Ogryn Enemies after 3 Years is Baffling

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
1

I don’t understand this decision in any way. What data were you looking at that made you decide we needed 30% fewer crushers and bulwarks? Did a few forum posts from players with terrible team compositions, playing on havoc 40 with the rotten armor modifier, convince you that your iconic Ogryn enemies, which we’ve been mulching through by the dozens every game for the past three and a half years, clearly have to be removed?

Did the 5 people complaining that they only have a measly 70% of their arsenal to choose from, if they want to counter carapace, lead you to the conclusion that Crushers were hopelessly overbearing and restrictive?

You made a game with zero team-composition restrictions. So you’re going to get feedback from teams that, somehow, manage to not bring a single ogryn-counter between them. Which, again, given what a small percentage of our arsenals this represents, is honestly impressive. Its been three and a half years we’ve had these enemies, they’ve been solved. The time to reduce their numbers, if ever, was at the beginning. Doing it now is just ridiculous.

The new shield mobs seem to be a way to give hoards back some of the bulk. They do the same job as the big-boys, but they’re less interesting to fight, have zero personality, and don’t give you any of the awesome “ah sh*t, Ogryn shield wall incoming, divide and conquer lads!” moments that have been a staple of your game for three and a half years.

The difficulty ceiling needs to get RAISED over time as players get better. This is a zero-compromise solution, everyone wins here, because the difficulty curve remains unchanged, you’re just adding more curve. If you find the new ceiling too hard, you’re in luck, you have every other difficulty in the game to choose from. Find it too easy? Hah, f*ck you. We’re going to make it even easier you dumb nerd.

*cries big dumb nerd tears*

2

it helps to read their actual explanation written in plain text in the same patches that made these changes, over and over:

to be fair, they are being extremely slow on the actually balancing player power part. the logic goes, heavily simplified:

  1. things like inferno staff etc made us spam crushers and bulwarks so the game still has anything to kill for the people who dont use those things
  2. we need to reduce this for various reasons, so we will now reverse some of the spawn changes that have amassed over time
  3. we will also start rebalancing some of the problematic player power cases that caused us to crank up spawns in the first place so the game can be challenging the way it was intended

step 3 has yet to happen, despite it being outlined in their explanation, and that’s what causes the frustration. it’s not because players were too bad to fight crushers

3

This. I read all of these notes, and that’s why I’ve made this post. Their stated goal, and the current reality, is not the same. I give feedback based on my played experience. The game is simply easier now then it was before. This idea of crushers forcing players into some restrictive meta was ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of builds have, and still have, hard counters baked into them. Yes, if you bring a heavy sword and do nothing but left click on the crusher, you’re not going to kill it. So maybe, use one of the other dozens of options, all of which are fun, unique, and don’t pigeon-hole you into some imaginary “anti-crusher only” build.

I’m frustrated that the stated goal of revitalizing the games meta, which should be cause for celebration, has instead done the opposite. The exact same meta remains, only now there is less fight to be had.

4

isn’t this self contradictory though? if the overwhelming majority of builds bring hard counters to 1 single enemy type, is that enemy type not restricting the meta too much?

it’s also directly related. those hard counters used to not exist.
there was a time where the game came out where crushers were a rare problem, and the team was fine banging on their pot helmets for 10 hits each. they were actually threatening and forced interaction with them, having to reposition because of them, having to actually dodge them.
now between all the buffs and crazy stuff like a character beign allowed to kill a theoretically unlimited amount of them by expending 0.25 grenade pickups at range, or a super high mobility weapon being able to kill them in 2 stabs, they barely even fight anyone anymore. there need to be like 10 of them for any of them to even reach the team anymore.

i’m also frustrated with the steps they’re taking and not taking and the order they’re in, but the actual gameplan is good and not baffling at all, it’s spot on exactly what they need to do to engooden the game and bring it back from the warframe tier powercreep in my opinion.
the only issue is that so far, they aren’t actually doing it

5

Pretty much everyone (well almost everyone i guess) regardless of difficulty they played on, be it heresy, auric or havoc were all sick of crusher/bulwark spam.
Which meant that if you do not bring anti-carapace weapons with you, you will wipe. It killed build variety, everyone hated it and rightfully so.

6

…what? If the game offers loads of counters to an enemy, then the enemy is restrictive? What? I’m saying that, out of all the options you have across all classes, a majority of them could deal with crushers alongside everything else. Meaning most of your options, a majority of your available arsenal, was available for you to choose from and not have any issue.

I don’t want to argue because it seems we’re in agreement. But the whole point of the feedback forum is feedback. We agree that they’re doing things in a bizarre way, pushing out a change to enemy composition before pushing out the changes to the players power level that would make it in any way reasonable. I’m here saying, “hold up, what are you doing? I was enjoying that! Give em’ back!”

They’re not an online banking service, this is a video game. If you haven’t finished every required piece of an update designed to revitalize the game, than just keep working on it. And definitely don’t push out half of it when doing so will make the game less interesting.

If I’m sounding harsh, its because we all know the timeline Fatshark works on with balance passes, and I don’t want to stagnate in this phase of the game. Sister of the Thorn anyone? 9 months where Vermintide was dead in the water. 9 months.

7

I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet that Crushers were also buffed, so while there are less of them each individual is more threatening. Deleting hordes of Crushers cheapens the moment imo, now even one is a bit more like

Bring it down!!

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Which is a good direction imo.

Also worth mentioning that countering carapace armour has certainly entered the meta in a big way in part due to the introduction of Plasma Gunners (carapace hat) and the Scab Rager body armour change from flak → carapace. The +% carapace perk on weapons has never been so popular.

For my part I like the move towards reducing enemy spam in favour of more meaningful mixed horde experiences and I think reducing Crusher spawn count and increasing their HP plays a role in that. Likewise with the new shield enemies making hordes more interesting and dangerous. Just please fix the shield hit registration code in this game…

I can’t help but wonder if this is due to extremely unreasonable players complaining at the slightest hint of a nerf to their precious ‘power’… So I think it’s a little contradictory to say we’ve been doing fine for 3.5 years and now it’s changed?? Because we have changed :grin:

At any rate, second best time is today right? Because I think it’s pretty much universally agreed that balance could be better.

8

Im just going to give the real simple version here.

Everyone needing to bring anti carapace 100% of the time or they basically instantly lose is BAD. Crusher spam was never hard it just required you to bring certain things or lose. This over centralized the meta on killing literally just one enemy. If you wanted to play a build that couldn’t deal with a wall of 10 crushers running at you, you couldn’t because that is happening 10 times every game.

Reducing them decentralized the meta and allows people to play other builds. This is not lowering the skill ceiling or making the game easier, it is simply making the game less about literally just countering one enemy. They didn’t remove spawns, they replaced spawns with a new challenge that is more fair and doesn’t require you to bring a dedicated weapon to counter it.

9

有人体验过更新后的近战金漩涡吗？天呐，满地都是带盾的杂兵，因为减少了粉碎者和其他欧格林的刷新量，这种任务里面只有数不清的专家和盾兵，我不知道以前那种全都是大罐头、小罐头和血痂狂热者的任务去哪里才能体验到了。非常怀念看到近战任务就切到灵能者选择爆破立场法杖解压的日子，现在的任务里只有刷新量比肩浩劫40的专家

10

I just don’t know what to say to this. I feel like I’m playing a different game. Here are the main-beats from some of my most used builds, but by no means all.

Zealot: charge + eviscerator, chorus + relic-blade.

Vet: shout + plasma, shout + recon, executioners + bolter.

Psyker: bubble + flame, bubble + trauma, shriek + flame, scriers + greatsword.

Ogryn: charge + pickaxe, taunt + shield, charge + cleaver (w/perfect strike)

Arbites: charge + shockmaul, castigators + shotgun

Scum: rampage + shivs, desperado + akimbo guns (either)

17 options that I rotate through, (but by no means all just those off the top of my head), all of which are “anti-everything”, can be used just fine on 40, and offer a huge amount of variety and unique gameplay between them. The only thing I’d consider when choosing one is what would compliment the team if I’m playing havoc. Otherwise, whatever I wanted.

Of the other builds I have that I don’t consider meta, the reason I wouldn’t bring them in high havoc has nothing to do with crushers, its always either ammo economy (pre-update gungryn), or being too specialized against crusher armor, and not being able to handle everything else well. (pre-update thammer zealot, zappy staff psyker)

11

Bro, this is an english forum. Either speak english like everyone else or dont say anything at all.

12

imageguess that wont spend much time

13

I’m guessing that we’ll see mid-cycle balance changes. It would be a business risk to introduce many/any nerfs to player power right as they’re releasing a super popular DLC character, given how they’ve been received in the past. That’s my theory anyway. But yeah for now we get to play an easier game where we don’t have to think too hard about what we kit out with.

If you were already comfortable fighting crushers without the s-tier option, this change does kind of feel bad.

14

Very true and a good point to bring up. Bound By Duty update: "HP on Heresy increased from 2700 to 4875. HP on Damnation increased from 3600 to 6500.

But I have not noticed this at all. I don’t mean I don’t think it went through, I mean it didn’t change how I play, or seem to make crushers in anyway more dangerous. I actively notice their absence in games, I don’t actively notice that those who remain now have more HP.

I’m 100% in favor of this as a new direction. I’m just highly concerned that we won’t be getting it anytime soon, and highly irritated that they have to make things less fun in the meantime. I don’t want my favorite game to have another “too boring, don’t wanna play” period that lasts for months. But its all conjecture on my part, they might have something in the chamber that will blow me away. Fingers crossed!

15

crushers weren’t the problem

and they shouldn’t done this for havoc, it should remained untouched for havoc

16

You know why those are the most used builds and like half the weapons lay unused on the floor? Ill give you 1 guess, because the answer is crushers. Ever see a heavy sword used ever? What about like all the auto guns and infantry lasgun? Combat shotgun? Chainsword? How about any melee weapon on vet other then power sword and dueling sword? Ever stopped to think why?

Almost every unused weapon shares the same thing in common. No or bad carapace damage. Now? Well there might actually be an argument for going infantry lasgun vet as a good specialist remover hell you could even pick off vanguards easily with well placed headshots. Maybe take a braced auto gun on zealot with dance of death for a nice generalist shooter. Combat shotgun is actually really good when not shooting into carapace, a good mobile high damage option. Without needing to specifically account for crushers all the time it is actually possible to run these things.

17

you ever make sure you bring a reaper hardcounter into your loadouts?

crushers were absolutely dominating the meta if every build had to make sure they have to pick a counter to that one enemy type.

back when the game came out people actively made fun of others for bringing anti-carapace tools at the expense of other things. crushers were big and dangerous, probably the most dangerous they ever were. it’s just that everything else was too. now you just poop on it with inferno staff and the like so all you plan for is the crushers

18

to be fair, crushers are symptomatic of the powercreep problem

the problem is obviously just player powercreep destroying the game balance from the ground up. they’re trying this approach because people are concerned that if all the meta op tools right now get brought down to a reasonable level, the current amount of crushers and armor spam would be unfun to fight. i think it’s all reasonable so far

but the fundamental root issue is that despite acknowledging all this fatshark still will not touch the outliers. they claim they will, but haven’t done anything significant. uncanny nerf was the sole actual thing they did so far in that direction. too little and not fast enough, and they buffed the inferno staff again in the same patch. the game remains fundamentally powercreeped

19

Dude I genuinely don’t know what you mean here? Or maybe you don’t know what I mean? Everything here is opinion based, and there’s nothing about mine that makes it anymore valid than yours, but I don’t think you’re fundamentally hearing what I’m trying to say.

I believe, truly and fervently, based off of over 2000 hours of playtime from the games release to now, that the majority of all weapons can handle all the enemies just fine. I 100% agree that there are weapons that can’t handle all enemies, but I believe these are the minority.

So when people say the game is restrictive, and you HAVE to bring anti-carapace weapons, I get very confused. Because from what I’ve played, this “restricted set of weapons” is…most weapons. If you chose your loadout at random every game, you would be absolutely fine 70% of the time.

Excluding the new skitarii weapons, there are currently 59 weapon groups in the game (some of these groups may only have a single type, such as staves). Of those, these are the ones that I believe will simply not work against crushers quickly enough to be viable. Whether it be due to damage, difficulty of use, bad blessing requirements, or requiring awkward builds to make them work, these are the bad options.

Devils claw, assault chainsword, braced autogun, combat shotgun, double barreled shotgun, heavy sword, helbore lasgun, inf-autoguns, inf-lasguns, kickback, power falchion, ripper gun, shredder autopistol, tac-axe, twin-linked heavy stubber, vigilant autogun.

Now you could argue for more, or you could argue some of these don’t belong, but lets say this is a roughly fair number of bad-eggs.

16 duds out of 59. Or 27%.

How is 73% viability restrictive? Should the game be made less challenging, less fun, to accommodate that 27%? A lot of the options that are propping up that 27% are redundant, or left-over filler from the games sparce launch. Do we need 3 different flavors of autogun? Do Warhammer 40k fans want to use an autogun over lasguns, bolters, and plasma? How critical to the core of the games DNA is having 6 different patterns of hand-axe?

And if we do, then great, tweak that 28% until its all viable. But why on earth would you come at the problem from the other end, by removing the thing that the 73% of weapons was already dealing with? That just seems so silly to me. We haven’t gained anything. The game is simply lesser.

20

I want this game to be as hard as possible as much as the next guy, but acting like the vast majority of the community don’t STILL judge melee weapons solely off of their “Crusher dps” is kinda silly. Like people still only care about Crusher killing when Havoc 40 spawns like 15 a map. Skitarii was coming out and we got questions like “How does Servo Skull do against Crushers?”

They warped the game and community heavily. Whether or not they were actually an issue is in the eyes of the beholder, but it was not a minority asking for changes. People still think Heavy Sword is irredeemable to this day.