It’s natural, no need to be shy or angry about it.
And it’s been going on in nearly every thread recently.
So, let’s do it - let’s compare DT with HD2. In this thread and with the deliberation of feedback, positive and negative. These are the FS forums, after all. Let’s keep that perspective.
Oh, and, this is a thread. Like. A block of text-like. If you’re tl:dr-prone, just pick a topic. No need to read the whole thing, unless you really really want to…
Now -
Before we dive (hur hur) into the matter, a few pre-suppositions and disclaimers, to avoid the pointless @s and quotes (I foresee these, but there will be others that develop, probably):
- These are obviously not the same game. HD2 isn’t a “Tide” game, same as DT isn’t a Freedom Simulator. Stating that “the melee combat in DT is vastly deeper” is equivalent to saying that “the Eagle Airstrikes in DT are somewhat lacking”.
- The actual lifespan of the two games differs by a year and some months. We can joke about FS’s holidays until kingdom come in the replies of every patch thread (and we do…), and for every joke, we can state that HD2 has been out for two weeks and we don’t know x or y yet. Let’s compare what’s there already for both games, and what’s projected.
- Keep it civil. These are viral fandoms with some fanatical supporters on both sides. The Emperor Protects, yes. And voting is important.
With that, for what it’s worth after 800h in DT and 120h in HD2:
The Leadup
DT: There was hype for DT and, seemingly at the time, rightfully so - a tide game made by a long-standing specialist studio which practically invented their niche in the genre, with the behemoth IP that is 40K? The word was - sign me up! Despite some wayward comms and articles, and what we now recognize as unfulfilled promises or just marketing “magic” (let’s use this term), sign up we did. And the marketing machine spun on. A few trailers and an open beta later and, it worked, as evident by the player spike at launch. The hopium was high.
HD2: The hype for HD2 was much more subdued in contrast. The official Discord was wild, yes, but the trailers circulated only the genre YT channels and communities (and the usual gamejourno outlets - IGN and GamePass notably), with seemingly fewer (anecdotally, I don’t really know the numbers here) articles around the nets. As to the IP, well, HD was a PS darling, a couch-coop phenom and beloved by a small base, but needless to say it’s nowhere near the magnitude of 40K. Following the game for four months and being in the official Discord a couple of weeks before release, I conclude that the marketing for HD2 was done well and professionally, leading up to some solid anticipation, but nowhere near what DT had to face and benefited from. The numbers at launch - a shade under DT. No open beta here. The game just launched ready to go.
Sum: DT had the hype before launch. HD2 was noted. Both were anticipated games, with large investor backing and produced by developers who knew their field well. Both were primed for launch, which…
The Launch
DT: …didn’t go well. Those who were there - you remember. Those who weren’t - better this way… The disaster that was the DT launch seems far away now, but at the time it was a proverbial s***show, summed up to the bitter meme that the only actually working mechanic was the mtx shop, alas. There were patches. There were angry topics and riled up consumers. Then more patches, which brought new issues with our without fixing prior ones… The works.
HD2: …didn’t go well either. But with a twist. While encountering many similar issues to DT’s launch, in terms of access, stability and support issues, HD2 seems to notably suffer from success. The player counts are historic, and not only are the fans not deterred, they multiply… The amount of feedback with both polarities is staggering. Angry consumers? You bet. Edgy topics? Mhmm. The same works as above.
Sum: two similar launch stories. Two vastly different narratives and community responses. Judging by the numbers of players, hours played (after the first month off release), number of reviews and units sold, HD2 folded the shovel and took it to the head of not only this direct comparison, but the rest of the AAA games launching in the same time, and some of the longstanding leaders in numbers. And while DT never even remotely got back to it’s original hype, we’re yet to see how much HD2 will grow.
Why? Well, simple. DT was much more broken at launch, shared access issues aside. HD2 failing to account for so much interest in the game, and scrambling to address backend netcode and server capacity is one thing, but the game as presented at launch is simply a better product. And at the same price-tag. Comparatively (which is what we’re doing here) and objectively - HD2’s state at release is very good. DT’s wasn’t.
The Developer Communication Post Launch
FS: If you’ve been on these forums, you know how FS are. And you’ve heard the reasoning. To put it plainly - communication isn’t really FS’s strong suit. And this became brutally evident immediately following launch. To continue the above paragraphs: the CM drama, the forum fires, the Discord bans, amounted to one of those industry “We’re sowwy…” letters and turning off the MTX (which worked…), and later a brief video of one of the higher-ups at FS being proud, and turning the MTX back on. Yeah, tone deaf? I’d say.
But crucially - not inspiring much faith or good will. And this trend has been such for a long time, at least since I’ve taken a personal interest starting with the beta of DT. Finally, the FS perspective and participation in the community, as little as it is, feels like a dud. This “Rejects of Atoma!” drive fell flat a week after launch and has felt like a targeted advertisement campaign, resulting in the community participating despite FS’s presence.
AH: I have never in my life observed and communicated with more open devs and CMs. To that - the CEO of AH seems to be a real character, taking the current situation like a professional, while still spicing up some odd comment on Twitter (which I don’t have an account in, and even if I did - you can go check out his recent statements there, if only for the laugh). This sets the exact opposite feeling of culture for the studio, evident in how they deal with the situation: numerous updates (10 already), steady comms and an obvious understanding of what’s going on. Instead of a “we’re sowwy” letter, the devs threw out a bonus rewards weekend, as a “thank you” for sticking with them… Which… Only caused more login attempts, more hype, more drama and even more issues… 
To drive the point - even this was acknowledged by the CEO the next day. All of this amounts to the exact opposite dev-to-community relationship, where the devs can proudly refer to their customers as “Helldivers!” and receive only cheers in return. This is mostly made evident by the already amassing player-driven Discord servers, organization and word of mouth.
Sum: there is no competition here. FS didn’t explicitly marketed DT as a Live Service, but gave off every sign that it’ll be such, ran into every pitfall related to this (whatever the platform was/wasn’t and ended up being) and failed to deal with it, I feel. AH avoided pitfalls while advertising its Live Service model immediately and openly, ran into the same issues at launch, and is blowing away the numbers daily. Simple as.
The Promises and Deliveries, so far…
Four-player coop. Sci-fi. Grimdark. Propaganda. Unreasonable levels of violence. Extreme indoctrination.
I don’t feel the need to explain it - if you’re reading on, you know the idea. Where we can distinguish immediately for some easy comparison is the Promise of each game and what we got on launch:
DT: promised a seemingly deep, mechanically-sound slasher and shooter platform, with strong coop mechanics to facilitate team-play and unscripted moments of action, which engage moment-to-moment decision making, anticipations and reactions. This premise was to be further bonded with class-based skills, various gear and “builds”, which are as expressive as the given player’s skill in executing by-design demanding mechanical requirements. This was to create an in-mission loop of rapid decision-making, split-second identification and reaction-based execution.
Did it deliver? Oh, yes. To nitpick at the gameplay of DT is an errand for the truly dedicated. It’s safe to say that the gameplay was the last thing that drove away a player of this game and is certainly the main reason those that still play are around.
It’s why we’re all still here, let’s be honest. And while we’re honest - let’s face it - DT’s design brilliance stops there. Everything else that was promised underdelivered with a boring sigh. What’s worse - most of the mechanics surrounding the actual deployments is boring, tedious and actively driving attention away from the best part of the game. Whereas…
HD2: promised a seemingly simple, mechanically-sound shooter platform, with strong coop mechanics to facilitate team-play and unscripted moments of action, which… ok ok, you get the point. The core-premise is very similar (before we get into the nitty-gritty ofc).
So, did it deliver? Oh, yes! Evidently and spectacularly so.
…and where HD2 succeeds most is where DT unfortunately stumbled - HD2 doesn’t keep you at all from the main gameplay. In fact, it pushes you on and on to keep diving, stay in the fun loop, and keeps the rest of the elements to a compact minimum. By the game’s internal “in mission” counter, I’ve personally spent 94 of my 117h in-mission. Not at the ship-hub. Not at the store. Not even testing or trying. Diving!
Sum: as the first major comparison and reason for the differences in success I wanted to point out, I feel this one is crucial and largely unspoken of directly. HD2 wants you to play it. It facilitates having fun all the way. This is also a major reason for the login drama - people want to see what the hype is about, easily exposed to the obviously great levels of entertainment the gameplay generates. DT is spectacular, objectively and anecdotally. And it does so much to keep you away from the spectacle, especially once you reach lvl30 and hit that crafting wall. It’s almost sad. And used to be infuriating, until it became boring, a boredom which then turns to indifference.
The Levels
To continue hooking the above, but still moving on -
DT: advertised procedurally generated levels inspired by other great games in the genre (Rock & Stone!). While I don’t recall precisely where, and this is possibly a result of the hype of the game, I have this memory… Whatever the reality behind the true statement of their level design intent was, the final product is an underwhelming collection of static levels that show the seems and patches of what was intended to be procedurally generated. What’s worse - the levels are underwhelming compared to FS’s previous titles and suffer from repetition greatly, lacking any modifiers to break the monotony after even the healthiest of hours-played estimates. They are beautiful, certainly. And I personally wasn’t bored… until I was. And when I found myself bored, there was no “unseeing” it. This took about 100h to set in.
HD2: very much presented the same idea, but actually pulls it off to greater success. And much like in DT you will soon find yourself doing the same primary and secondary objectives, yet so far the boredom hasn’t set in. For one, the different biomes are diverse enough to make going to a new planet interesting, which greatly increases the longevity of the system, and for another - the actual completion of these objectives is diverse enough to avoid being repetitive. The major point for HD2 here is the Galaxy Map, which alone suggests that, accounting for repeating biomes, there’s a lot more we’ve not seen yet. This is supported by the fact that atm, with only four available systems in the early days of the war, the available biomes and combinations of meteorological modifiers is plentiful.
Sum: while the core gameplay experience for both games is their primary strong-point, the levels on which said gameplay unfolds are crucial, and while DT’s levels are artistic and soundly designed, they are unfortunately too repetitive. HD2’s Live Service bakes in a solution to this, presenting worlds that are stunning and uncanny, while diversifying through procedural generation.
The Balance and the Builds
We have to go there… and you know what I’m going to say. No matter how much you love or hate DT, it’s that time…
DT: crafting. (I really want to stop here…)… (But I can’t…) It’s bad. All of it. And that fact corrupts and spoils so much of the rest of the game, that it turns this particular field of comparison into an automatic W for the other side. The added talents didn’t help. The fixes and “steps” in this or that direction didn’t help. Let’s be honest in this comparison at least, since HD2 doesn’t even have a horse in this race, really.
The most devastating aspect to this is the balance within this PvE platform - any attempt to institute meaningful changes in the math will collide with the crafting system and vice-versa. Note, I’ve not used the “g” word, the “f” word and the “c” word so far… (that last one is “casino”, for anyone still reading…)
Which all comes crashing down on any actual meaning of the word “build”. By the time you can even afford to make what you’d like, you’ve already played for too long. And once you can, you understand that it’s an exercise in chance, patience and faith that the next patch won’t make your precious, gracious item into a dust-collecting ornament in your inventory. But that’s bleak… So, let’s just say that it doesn’t matter, since half the mechanical interactions are arcane in nature, few even understand how they really come together and if at all, and those that do will simply tell you that “this item and combo” is better. This is the reality of a year+ of DT updates and feedback.
Moving on -
HD2: allows you to play with all the toys at lvl20/50. And you can legitimately obtain every weapon, stratagem, piece of gear and ship upgrade currently available at launch in roughly 50-60 hours. And then, you just select what you like. And dive. If there’s any gatekeeping to this freedom, it’s time and effort. Zero RNG.
Yeah - this amounts to an actual progression path, with meaningful goals, unlocks, “grind” if we must, although that word hardly applies so far in this game. There are naturally items (weapons) that are more difficult to acquire, with the difference that the difficulty stems from the need to acquire more resources, and even that can be done in a manner respectful of your time and ability. As to balance - without any numbers bloat and by the core design, every gun has a purpose, every stratagem - a use, and every armor - doesn’t work mechanically atm (confirmed, known issue ). Jokes aside - the game is made in such a way as to disincentivize “meta” and provide vast and meaningful functionality. Which, ofc, means that some guns and stratagems are more universally liked, without outshining their counterparts… since there aren’t any intended such.
To elaborate - there’s a (modern) pump-action shotgun. It does precisely what you think it does (and surprisingly well in terms of range), it’s precisely as powerful as you’d think and when used well will devastate accordingly. There is no other pump-action shotgun that does what this one does, so if you like and get good with this one, you’re golden. You’re not looking for another perk, blessing or some new way to buff it. It’s perfect as is.
There’s also an automatic (modern) shotgun. It also does exactly what you think it does, and also at a refreshingly longer than anticipated range. Is it better than the pump-action shotgun? No. These two weapons fill vastly different roles in a squad, perform differently vs. the different enemies in the game, and where you can do similar things with them, one is a support-specialist weapon used to keep your lines safe from melee attackers, while the other is an assault tool intended to gain ground in rapid bursts. And where one will allow you to skip the next resupply and still have bang for when you need it, the other is ammo-gluttonous and will strain your resources.
Sum: two different systems, two different approaches here. I prefer and sing the praises if HD2’s approach to itemization, balance and progression. Call me old-fashioned. Oh, and, I hate being gatekept by something I can’t affect in any way, except for putting more coins in. I’d prefer less perks and blessings, static numbers and a vast field of application any day.
The Skills and Difficulties
There’s some considerable overlap between the two games, yes. There’s also an equally considerable gap between them. Also, yes.
Let’s go:
DT: is more mechanically demanding in an active sense, relying on your decision-making, reflexes and coordination to a greater degree than HD2. But not by much. And once we get to the highest difficulty of DT, those same skills are strained to the maximum, resulting in a flow-state of anticipation, reaction, rapid analysis and identification, and action. It’s great. But the question is - is it harder than HD2? Objectively - No. Personally - also No.
(GAASP) I know, I know, we want our tide games to be hard. I, myself, enjoy challenges maybe too much. But DT really isn’t as difficult as the common perception would suggest. There’s a skill threshold, certainly. And if a player is dedicated to reaching it, they’ve already surpassed the needed effort to go beyond it. Simply put, and this is more a personal anecdote - once you get it, you get it. The rest is practice. Which can be fun, but sometimes isn’t and when it isn’t, it’s a grind.
HD2: is more mechanically demanding in a passive sense, relying on your preparation, good habits and team-orientation to a greater degree than DT. But not by much. And when you get to the highest difficulty of HD2, those same skills are strained to the maximum, resulting in a… OK OK, I did the same joke above! It’s a long post, so sue me for having some fun… With the same point!
This too is great, so where’s HD2 different? In the details - HD2’s subtle skill-checks are much more notable here - did you reload your weapons before a fight? Did you position badly before engaging? Did you even afford your team that choice? Etc. Notable, in the sense that the consequences for failing to execute in these skill checks can be much more devastating than DT. And the game not only accounts for that, it was built with it specifically in mind - one thing that HD2 succeeds in doing well is incentivizing teamplay, instead of having it as an option.
No, not the two-man heavy weapons team mechanic. Moreso than that - efficiency and safety. The skill cap here, once you start to even notice it from under all the bombardments, is pointed towards your teammates. There’s an actual point to patiently waiting for your mate to unload his MG43, before you step in to cover his reload and dumping your Breaker, instead of both of you going off, and hearing that dreaded “click” at the same time, with one then scrambling back for cover while the other having double the targets suddenly.
Sum: if I had to (and I don’t, but I will anyway ) pick which game has more personal skill expression, I’d say DT by a smidge and a melee blocking/stagger system. As to difficulty (same principle) - HD2, by merit of three other twitchy apes that can and will kill you in unfortunate spectacles of freedom and democracy… And a ranged/throwing minigame. Here I’d like to talk about the solo experience briefly - none of these games are meant for that, but we do it anyways because we’re gamers and the games account for it, probably And so far, HD2 is more fun to challenge solo on higher difficulty because of the stealth mechanics in the game… which… it doesn’t tell you about in the tutorial. Aaah, Super Earth…
The MTX
Rotating stores. Gotta have them. Corpo said so. Ugh…
DT: is it live service or not? It seems to have all the scummy, annoying GaaS features latching all over it like a bad DKoK cosplay that costs too much and looks horrible, and you never really wanted to make anyway but your boy/girlfriend made you, so here you are now… All this liveserviceness, minus the content feed and… the Live Service of it… Hmm.
The prices rose notably around Oct 4th. The quality was never that great to begin with, but some sets were fun(ny). And the recolors… are just…
I’ve never been one to participate a lot in these mechanics of games, but I do wish to support a game and dev I like, if I can. DT made me hate this idea.
HD2: it’s Live Service. But… somehow avoiding the scummy, annoying GaaS features to a great extent. Those it didn’t avoid are reasonably priced, objectively (not my call here - there’s people whose entire job and personality is to follow these trends and analyze them). Personally - I hardly care, same as in DT. But HD2 made me warm up to the idea of supporting games and devs I like again. So that’s saying something. The facts that you can earn prem currency by playing as you would anyway, “battlepasses” remaining available and unlocked forever etc. are nice features, but often overshadow the main point of these MTX - is it predatory? In the case of HD2 - definitely not.
Sum: one store is everything I hate about modern gaming. The other is a probable meme, and a possible jab at the industry at large. CEO statements about FOMO and being deserving of monetization aside (this can well be PR) - my feeling towards HD2’s shop are largely missing. It really doesn’t matter, the game wasn’t built around it. It doesn’t throw it in your face. There’s no voiced NPC to poke you. I don’t get the feeling that this was the idea of the game.
Darktide… well. I really don’t know what to feal. My personal conspiracy theory is that they had plans during development, and then were “presented” with the “opportunity” to monetize their game, and they “chose” to go that way, cutting a lot and “making sacrifices” to give us this complete product.
The Future
DT: isn’t dead. Isn’t really thriving either. It just… is. Slowly creeping down to “obscure” levels of daily players. Out there, in the gaming sphere, chugging along, angry fans and white knights afoot. It’s… boring to me now. And whatever the future holds for it, I’ll be here to see it, just to sanity-check myself. Will I play it again? Chances are slim. After 800h, does my points matter? You tell me.
The Oct 4 Patch brought some life back, which was immediately monetized, marketed to and then thrown away in silence. I unfortunately feel that this pattern will continue for a long time to come, and each year we will see an Oct 4th-like patch, with the same approach and comments. Not interested. DT needs new weapons rooted in the 40K lore, new levels, biomes and challenges, new progression overall. It’s not getting any of that atm, in any meaningful way.
HD2: suggested a roadmap, spoken of a week before launch, atm being refreshed to account for the uncanny success of the game. The final trailer before release confirmed a completely new (to anyone who hasn’t played the first game) stratagem type (Titanfall 3 confirmed). The game is filled to the brim with subtle and funny propaganda-pieces that tease races, enemies and potentially mission types.
But that aside, the game launched with an actually functioning Live Service Galactic War, a global conflict driven by the players and actual people on the side of AH. And already, in these first weeks, and during the access issues, it was confirmed that they’ll react to the community’s maneuvers and efforts on the map. Exciting times, we live in.
Sum: the future can become brighter for DT, but the likelihood is small, I feel. The future can certainly become darker for HD2, but all observable phenomenon point to the opposite. AH are expanding and communicating, presenting an actually functioning (barring access issues) Live Service. So far. It can turn into a much more mtx-driven, platform-for-profit type deal. This remains to be seen.
…
Wow. You made it all the way to the end? Did you read all that? Sheesh.
By the Light of Terra, you are dedicated. And I am humbled.
Or maybe you just scrolled to the bottom to see if there’s something here? Well, there is!
Now go write a comment. For Super Earth.
