Currently I couldn’t use a longbow with kruber unless I am huntsman. But I don’t want to select huntsman. I don’t find it fun. It’s a bit hard to play. I’d like to see Mercenery and Knight be able to use the Longbow. Heck one of the bow’s is called the sergeant’s longbow so why can’t the knight use it?
Longbow is a peasants weapon, unfit for knightly orders. Longbow suits the style of the Huntsman as it is a Verderers weapon meant to deal with predators attacking their lords livestock,and to dispatch bandits and poachers. A Knight would never even consider using such a dishonorable thing!
… except maybe in a life-or-death situation during the end of the world where it’s literally the first ranged weapon you’re exposed to and you grab a bow when playing Foot Knight in the prologue?
On top of that, you’d think the bow was the iconic weapon for the Huntsman because it’s unique to him, but a lot more of his talents complement the Handgun more. Also, he’s shown holding the Handgun in the hero select screen, as well as in the dev blog for the game pre-release.
I guess what my point is: I want to use that mallet against rats and also the Longbow on other classes because Huntsman is too edgy and I want to play Merc and Foot Knight.
Also that auto zoom thing is annoying on the bow too, it should be the weapon special or something unique to Huntsman.
And I want to use repeaters on WS and dual axes on IB. But then, that would just be weird and unfluffy, so I don’t actually want that.
The Longbow is fine being limited to huntsman - also fluffwise, as it is a difficult weapon to use, after all. I guess I could see it being employed with Merc at a reduced efficiency, but it definitely doesn’t fit foot knight.
Reduced efficiency like having less ammo (such that Scrounger only gives 1 ammo instead of 2) and firing slower?
The base ammo for the bow is 20, so it only gets 1 from Scrounger and Huntsman’s increased base ammo bumps it up to 2, so it wouldn’t be crazy on Merc.
Also, if they finally fixed the reload speed talents and passive for Huntsman to work properly with the bow, it’d fire less quickly on non-Huntsman classes, in theory.
But, yeah, I agree it’s silly to have a Foot Knight using a longbow. It’d be doubly silly if that was literally the first class and weapon combination used by pretty much every person who bought this game, but then they could only use it in the tutorial lol.
So you’re saying they should switch Krubers Model to merc to prevent that?
I could live with that.
It would definitely require work to change the tutorial around the ultimate, since it’s around Kruber’s shout instead of the charge. It would also seem a little more consistent to have the tutorial not be for a class you unlock at level 12.
But also the tutorial could be improved as a means to explain stagger or other mechanics that are pretty much just thrown at you. So it wouldn’t hurt to go back and improve it if they plan on a big update to bring new players in. Maybe throw a tome or grim on the map. If temp health was a level 1 mechanic instead of a level 5 mechanic it could be explained there.
I could see it reasonable that the bow is exclusive to Merc and Huntsman, like how the Throwing Axes are exclusive to Ranger and Slayer. But truthfully I feel like it’d be okay on FK even if it’s a little silly. These are strange and dark times in Warhammer, so I can understand desperate measures like using a longbow even if it is below your station.
Well, IRL archery was a craft known to both european knights and samurai. These people were professional soldiers of their time, spending a good part of their life on training. If there is no clear statement in the lore that knights wouldn’t touch a longbow if their life depended on it, I think we can safely assume, that they would use and be proficient with it.
Bows have always used attack speed to increase fire rate. Semantically, you don’t reload a bow, you nock an arrow and draw the string. Both actions are affected by this property. But if they did add “increase ranged attack speed by x” to the reload talent (kinda like the talent Sienna has), it would have some merit to be used with bows. Side note: I think talents that have no effect because of your build choice shouldn’t exist or be changed.
Warhammer certainly isn’t anywhere close to real life. There’s not even an actual warhammer in there.
But if we have to bring it in, no, I wouldn’t expect any knight to be proficient with a long bow.
How long did those people train with them? Comfortably over a decade, if memory serves.
Of course, Kruber obviously does have some experience with them.
Still, you have a closet full of guns, so he’s not exactly starved for choice. The tutorial is indeed a case of using what’s available, but that is really no argument for any other mission.
I think having attack speed affecting reload would be an interesting approach to all ranged weapons. It’d give extra benefits to taking attack speed on your charm or using Swift Slaying as an active reload proc. Not like Swift Slaying needs more buffs though lol.
Just removing the concept of “reload speed” with the idea of “ranged attack speed” that includes the firing rate and reload speed would be pretty cool.
Yeah I wouldn’t have anything against that change but it seems unlikely, ranged weapons are always getting nerfed.
Lore-wise, Bretonnian knights don’t use ranged weapons because it’s not chivalrous and bow is a peasant weapon.
We do see a lot of Empire lords and high ranking officers using a pistol for example, and while I think that Empire Knights are not strictly prohibited from using ranged weapons, they simply do not use it since that’s not their purpose.
A Greatsword mercenary could carry a ranged weapon to use it as an option in some clusterfu.ck situation, but his main weapon is a sword and his purpose is to cleave through enemy lines while being supported from the back by hand gunners and quarrelers.
Pistoliers use ranged weapons because they are the ranged cavalry.
Every unit has its place and everything is there for a reason. That’s why Empire’s army is so good and effective.
These are all small blocks which build the wonderful world of Warhammer and our beloved Empire. If we start taking those blocks out we take small pieces of Warhammer fluff away.
Stuff like this is why I think class locked weapons are good for the game, especially overtuned DLC weapons (a’n’f reee).
I just got this gut feeling that the weapon balance might be slightly better as well as make classes feel more unique if more weapons were locked.
Yes, but our little adventure team is by far not a regular army. They have “classes” that represent different life/training paths, but I guess regardless of class they would be using any weapon they deem useful for a mission. Hence we see Zealot with a rapier or Witch Hunter with a flail or greatsword - if it’s available and they know how to use it…
I like both approaches: class-locked weapons and universal weapons. The former lets them add wackier and more creative weapons (like the Throwing Axes), while the latter lets players experiment more and increases potential loadout diversity more.
It’s easier to balance the locked weapons because you can just tweak the class or the weapon without affecting other things, sure. It also lets you add more creative weapons that are specialized to fit the needs, lore, and role of a specific class and balance it around that. For example, to balance the Longbow, Dual Axes, or Drakegun, you can approach it from either direction of changing the class or the weapon.
The universal weapons are also good because they encourage experimentation and diverse loadouts, at the cost of being slightly more intrusive to change. At the same time, if you observe that a certain class and weapon combination are overpowered, but other classes using the weapon are not, you can more easily figure out what the problem is by seeing the weapon’s usage across different classes.
In middle England (Hundred Years War and about a century afterwards), it was required by law for all able bodied adult males between 13 and 40 years old to train with a longbow on Sunday’s and Holy Days - nobility, knights, and peasants included. This meant l that literally anyone (male at least) could be conscripted into duty as a line archer at any time. Also, lumber suitable for bow staves were required as a tariff on imports. England was BIG on archery.
England was the only RL country to go all in on the bow though, because of the risk of peasants using them in an uprising . It turns out that giving your peasantry the skill to become a deadly threat to your own knights at any time is not entirely desirable. Bows are just carefully carved sticks - what are you going to do, lock the forest in an armory? Now you know why everyone else used crossbows - they could be locked up when not in use. Unless you are a tiny island nation and the military advantage is required for survival, the risk wasn’t worth it. England’s long history of brutal civil wars is no coincidence.
The Empire in Warhammer is loosely based on pre-industrial Germany though, so archery would not be all that important there except as a hunting or civilian weapon. There’s also the whole ‘gunpowder makes bows obsolete in warfare’ thing.
I concur with the sentiment that Kruber needs more bow action.
The Longbow was the British Superweapon of it’s time. Victories at Crecy and Agincourt were not won by the Men at Arms (i.e knights) at all. A good archer could fire ten arrows in 30 seconds with a draw weight of 200lb. This means three thousand British archers fired something like 180000 arrows during the first minute of the opening charge of the French at Agincourt.
Apart from the skill required to put an arrow through the visor of an armoured knight at 200 paces, it takes years to develop the sheer muscle across the back and shoulders to pull a medieval war bow. It’s like lifting an 18 stone man with only your two fingers - while doing a push up with your other hand. Getting hit in the chest in full armour would likely knock a knight flat onto his back.
In fact there is a theory that due to torrential rain waterlogging the field and the sheer weight of the armour that many French Knights simply drowned when they were knocked face down and couldn’t haul themselves back to their feet while they were being clambered over by other knights and slipping around all over the place.
A crossbow didn’t need the years of skill to develop into a useful soldier. It got pulled back by a mechanism and you could aim it “down the sights” where a longbow was pulled back behind the ear.
We’ve only had one official civil war, but we have invaded something like 96% of the countries in the world. Guess that’s why we’re the bad guys in movies so much.
Sir Krubah will use his Sword and Shield like a true knight would. Especially after WoM Launches!
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