A suggestion how to improve Krubers longbow

First off, i really like the Longbow. It is the ranged weapon i have the most fun with.
But i think it could get a little bit improved without making it to strong.

The Problems i have:

  1. If you use the charged attack (right mouse button) it is very inaccurate, even with the 25% less weapon spread abillity. I understand why they did it like that. A longbow has a very high draw weight and requires much strength so you might start shaking while you’re aiming. The animation even shows that. But it is extremely annoying that you can’t rely the arrow to fly to the target position.
  2. If you use the charged attack you don’t have to completely charge the bow to get the maximum damage.
    I always thought that the light attack with bows doesn’t deal as much damage as the heavy attack because the character doesn’t fully charge its bow. That would make completely sense. But this doesn’t applie to Kruber with his longbow.

How to improve in my opinion:

  • When using the Heavy attack you should have to wait till the bow is fully charged to get the maximum ammount of damage. As soon as the bow is fully charged, you go in the zoom mode. For the first one or two seconds in the zoom mode, you should have a very high accuracy. After these one or two seconds your accuracy should rapidly decrease. This would simulate that Kruber gets exhausted and starts shaking. It is already done similar in games like mount and blade.

How would this improve the gameplay:

  1. These changes would mean that the player wouldn’t have to need luck to get the arrow flying where he is pointing it.
  2. It still needs much skill to use the longbow because you only have a short time to target the enemy.
  3. Very skilled player could better use Krubers passive.
  4. The bow still wouldn’t be op because of the long charging time.
  5. Shooting would feel more realistic.
  6. I would be even more different than bow shooting with kerrilian.

Please share your opinions about this.

6 Likes

I like this. Many other games with bows use similar mechanics and it does feel nice when your quick target acquisition is rewarded appropriately. I also think that the bow’s damage is already counterbalanced with its relatively slow draw speed and Kruber’s immobility while using it. The low accuracy on top of that seems kind of unnecessarily punishing.

3 Likes

I agree in part; longbow needs fix/buff, but not in this way.

  1. aiming to headshot is Keri’s style. Markus’ bow is thought for bodyshot and penetration;
  2. wait full charge to do full damage is too penalizing… huntsman’s role needs rapidity.

They just have to remove zoom… if you know to aim quickly you can do max damage with accuracy. If you are slow, you lost accuracy. In this way is important another skill: know the right timing to shoot the arrow.

This is just a simply idea for zoom problem… full discussion is in my thread.

The accuracy is lost as the zoom is happening, but you’re able to fire a charged shot just before then.
Of course, even then Azumgi’s not as accurate as an elgi, but not bad for a manling, anyhow!

I feel like it makes sense, looking at it as the moment just before the zoom starts is when you finish the full draw and then you’re trying to hold it there while you focus forwards.
However, I’ve neither experience with archery in reality nor much enthusiasm for most of Kruber’s kit (though I do enjoy the longbow but I can’t yet play him well)

I don’t have a problem with this. In fact I think it’s surprisingly good game design. I know this may sound backwards, but the reality is that the game is INTENTIONALLY full of these kinds of little quirks. Like how your dodge distance is different based on weapon, block revives, blocks stopping charge skills, the fact you can push a gutter rat right as it hits you to avoid the pounce, or how individual attacks of a weapon may get increased headshot damage (like 2h elf sword heavy stab attack!). But let me put it a bit more directly:

1. It’s easy to use/learn, hard to master.

These are the sort of nuances that allow even beginner players to quickly pick up weapons and play to a fair amount of effectiveness, but allow good players to really milk the system to outperform a novice significantly. This kind of design lets newer players flail around and still have fun while making it feel rewarding and clever to gain skill.

It rewards careful and consistent skillful play without completely screwing over the noobs.

2. It’s part of Longbow’s balancing:

The Longbow is already an amazing weapon. It can kill hordes and light armor like nothing even with body shots and it can damage heavy armor. It also does great boss damage if your aim is true. It has long range and good accuracy when used right. And it’s ammo reserves are quite generous. The need to learn how to fire the heavy shot with good timing is one of the few balancing factors Longbow has.

The Longbow is already pretty good at everything. If we make the change you’re asking for I daresay it needs a nerf.

1 Like

He literally has a passive that gets him ammo on head shots though.

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If headshots are Kerrilians style, Krubers passive doesn’t make any sense :wink:
Also it would still be much easier to deal headshots with kerillian because you have much more time to aim.
Furthermore there are incredible good archer’s in reallity like Lars Andersen. So why not in this game.
Keep in mind, bow shooting with Kruber would still be very different to bow shooting with kerillian.

To be honest i was also suprised how well they did the shooting with the longbow.
You say its easy to use and hard to master. If they implement my idea it would be even harder to use and to master. So i don’t understand why it would need a nerf afterwards. I just don’t like how big the spread is even if you shoot immidiately. It replaces skill with luck. I hope i don’t sound rude :slight_smile:

The fact it only takes a split second more to fully draw after getting full damage in the current state means all you’d be doing is making it easier to get both full damage and shoot accurately. You’re straight up lowering the skill ceiling.

Right now you have to time it to get both accuracy and damage, this is a partial second time window. In your version you have zoom + 1-2 full seconds to shoot accurately.

The bow is actually quite accurate if you know it’s mechanics. It’s your aim and understanding of the mechanics that’s off, not the spread. You can test this easily in the keep even just by shooting the same spot on the wall across the courtyard near the training dummy. But let me break it down.
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Snapshot: All snap shots have noticeable arrow drop over distance.

  • Snapshot: accurate with very slight variance.

  • Snapshot while moving or jumping: now you have some noticeable spread.

  • Snapshot while crouching: near sniper accuracy.

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Aimed shot: Almost no arrow drop, zoomed shots are an exception.

  • 1st moment of aimed shot: near sniper accuracy happens the moment you hold hit right click.

  • Entire charging process before zoom starts: Sniper accuracy maintained as damage increases.

  • Charge level - Bow string disappears from screen: at this point you have full accuracy and full damage. You have about a full half second at this stage to shoot the shot. It’s a pretty generous window actually.

  • Zooming starts: the instant the zooming starts your accuracy starts dropping. Unlike the other accuracy losses this one is not limited to horizontal spread with a predictable vertical drop. Your shot can vary both vertically and horizontally, basically you now have a cone of fire. The projectile variance can actually go slightly wider than the crosshairs on extreme deviations.

1 Like

Nope guys, talents are just numbers and words (and imho there was a lack of inventiveness). Gameplay is the important thing: we have the bow with higher body damage, armor penetration and also this low accuracy witch max charge.

I have said it so many times, having zoom but less accuracy is not what you expect in a game, ever. No games do this that I recall.

Its misleading because if anything you expect increased accuracy with zoom, not less. The zoom might as well not exist at all.

1 Like

This is a lie, it’s called scope sway and it’s on basically all very long ranged weapons (scoped) in modern games. Shoot an unscoped rifle in a modern shooter, now shoot a scoped rifle and notice your aim moves without you telling it to. There is also typically some bullet deviation for any non sniper, even if there is no scope sway for games that let you put scopes on non-sniper weapons. This bullet deviation of course makes shooting at distance less and less accurate.

And bows are actually somewhat inaccurate by nature, because even if your shot is perfect and your bow is perfect…arrows can easily slightly differ in ways that affect their trajectory. (for the moment assuming no wind!) Professional bowmen will often test their arrows to make sure that the arrows that they are using are all of uniform rigidity and quality for this very reason. But we don’t get uniform perfect arrows in Vermintide. You get what arrows you can pick up, and they will be of slightly different flight dynamics. That will certainly affect the shot.

But this is assuming, of course, comparisons to modern bows like compounds and recurves made from carbon fiber even! Kruber is using a very high draw strength long bow and that’s a different story to a modern compound bow or recurve. Longbows are actually far more difficult to aim properly than say, a modern compound bow as you do not have an arrow rest, sights, or the same arrow velocity (more drop/wind interference) when compared to modern compound or recurve bows.
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So honestly regardless of whether you are talking video games or IRL, you are not correct in your assertions.

1 Like

That’s normal movement that looks larger because of magnification or larger recoil AFTER firing, its actually less accurate here even on your initial shot. Your weapon spread is actually increasing during the zoom which i am sure I have not noticed in other games.

Elf bow doesn’t lose accuracy on zooming…infact it gets pretty much pinpoint accuracy. Handgun zoom has increased accuracy. Crossbow has increased accuracy during zoom. Pretty sure every other zoom in the game has increased accuracy!

Ill end by saying your a liar just to set the same tone as you (a needlessly argumentative one). But your not a liar, your just flat out wrong. Nobody would ever use aiming down sight if it resulted in decreased accuracy, think about it.

you mean the guy who showshoots using a bow that even a baby could pull?

Lars Andersen might have been a lazy argument :wink: I just wanted to show that humans are able to shoot extremly accurate. But i guess a longbow would be much more accurate than the bows that Lars ist using. But there are many good archers in the World. Not only Lars :slight_smile:

Well i made a test again like you can see in this Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5AEdL92hzE
I have to admit, it is more accurate as i thought. Maybe i made my first test without the 25% less weapon spread? I still think its not accurate enouth even if you shot at the perfect moment.

But i don’t understand your argument with modern shooter games.
If you target at something you have a slight weapon sway. If you scope in now you still have the same weapon sway, you just notice it more. Thats how it is in the shooters i play at least :smiley: (Arma 3 for example.)

The point of contention was not accuracy, but the difficulty and strain of the draw - with a low draw weight bow, you don’t really have to strain at all for the draw, so you can easily do fine muscle controls. With a heavy draw bows like a medieval longbow, you may have to pull more than a hundred pounds for a full draw, which puts a lot of strain on the shooter.

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Thats right. Depending on who you ask they say the draw weight could go from 100 to more then 200 pounds. Its defenitely much harder to get a steady aim with that. The longbow will stay my favorite ranged weapon in this game, not mather if they change it or not :slight_smile:

Doesn’t explain why the zoom exists if this is an intended feature, it would make more sense if the zoom was removed.

Oh, I agree, I wouldn’t mind seeing the zoom gone, it just makes the weapon more awkward to use.

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