I was refering to “one per type” and not counting cosmetics. But fair enough.
Actually since the game had no pseudo RNG, you could extremely unlucky. I remember having a lot of red items early on, most of them trinkets, though.
There’s being skeptical and then there is what gamers have a tendency to do in online communities, my experience coming from several reddits for many games over the years. “Meanness” is one example(ad homonem of some stripe already being exemplified), but there is a slew of behavior which makes it very difficult for a creative type to interface with a community directly.
Because if their phrasing isn’t extremely controlled the entire mood around a game can completely turn around. Then gamers wonder why everything is so slow and expressed in corporate speak.
Take it for what you will, but of the 3 issues you cite as corporate bs, i attribute none of them to malice. I take no issue with the cosmetics, the 2400 bundle issue is an oversight they fixed, and I only wish there was less crashing on release. eg I don’t care that crafting wasn’t fully in because it’s a $40 rolling release and on release players don’t really need to craft.
WOTV, now that was some bs. Though i understand they had to drop it for working on their big break title Vermintide, they might have offered the option to play an older functional version of the game.
In my perception the RNG of weapons in Darktide isnt very ‘integral’ in the sense that if you get a 360+ weapon with a few blessings and perks you can do all the content in the game. Meaning a person that knows the mechanics of the game can do just fine with level appropriate weapons.
FWIW I think the ‘more challenging content’ is likely coming down the pipe assuming FS can get the runway to make it.
1 Like
I think the biggest issue is how missions don’t feel like a fun romp through a level, but a dungeon crawl for crafting mats. You also don’t get feedback on how collecting tomes, grims, or doing special conditions increases the quality of your final reward. There’s also the case that only one of those three can be active at a time (or none of them at all), that for two of them they’re scattered randomly around the map with only one of those two having a visual cue to help you find them.
Compared to V2, you had tomes and grims both in every single mission, set in static locations so once you learned where they were you could now make the choice to grab them or not each run. The greedier you got the less options you’d have if the fighting got rough (replacing potions, healing) but it was a judgement call the player made. Dice were randomly and rarely put inside containers, but always dropped from a chase-style enemy (loot rat) and from monsters, so you knew what you’d get when you saw one of those two and when finding them randomly it was a nice little treat. There was still crafting mats, but you got them at the keep from scrapping subpar rewards. You also got 3 items with 1 guaranteed equipment.
All of this is to say that in V2 the focus was on running the level and getting out alive with as much as you could grab at your own discretion while increasing the challenge on yourself by choice. It then contributed directly and visibly to your final reward. In darktide I spend less time focusing on the level and more time on checking every nook and cranny for plasteel. I hope more for crafting mats than I do for ammo in darktide, which is less than ideal. As I mentioned before tomes and grims are only one at a time, scattered at random and only take up one slot so it’s less possible to take a big risk for a better reward, and the screen that gives you the Emperor’s gift doesn’t show you how your actions increased the quality of your loot. Subpar gifts now give you money instead of crafting mats, which you now spend in a randomized shop that has as much a chance to give you something just as subpar as the item you just got rid of that you’ll likely just recycle again.
tl:dr
Vermintide 2 focused on the player’s choice to take on more challenge with a little RNG to get better rewards. You got more items per run and sub-par gear became fuel for adjusting the gear you wanted to keep. The focus in the missions themselves was on gathering the items of challenge and surviving.
Darktide has less choice to take on more challenge for better rewards, the effect of the extra challenge on your rewards is unclear, and the number of rewards is lesser. Subpar gear does not contribute to improving the gear you want to keep, rather it is just fuel to acquire more subpar gear. The resources you actually need are found in the missions where you end up focusing not on the fighting and the challenge, but ferreting out every last scrap of crafting material.
Edit: I went down a very long path. Yes, an interview discussing the ideas and the intent behind the current system would be deeply appreciated. Whoever does it is probably gonna be vilified no matter what they say, but I’d rather know what their intent was rather than have to guess at it.
6 Likes
Sometimes it’s just painfully obvious that the “release” was just to get the end of year bonus, and that this is all practically early access in all but name.
Since it’s officially full released; it will be judged as such. “creative types” would only have trouble with player backlash if they were responsible for those decisions.
Would you expect “we planned it but decided to scrap it, to release game earlier for more money that can be put toward making game better” to work better than “we never planned it despite comments in magazine interviews, this ain’t cod, you’re all stupid for expecting that”?
That’s how you tell everyone they shouldn’t trust a word from you.
You conveniently forgot the fact that fatshark left debug code(which they added in final day of beta) for first few days on official release, causing major performance issues. Or you didn’t know/didn’t care, which makes you even less credible.
Sell all your oranges since clearly they’re not needed.
4 Likes
There’s your problem lol.
In all seriousness I agree with you on at least some of your points. While I do still think DT and FS have rightfully lost some of the goodwill they have, some people here and elsewhere have taken their cynicism too far. One that sticks to me was a few months ago people where arguing that the only reason the Morningstar hub only exists to sell cosmetics, which is ridiculous imo. My opinion on it was that it was partly to emulate kind of an mmo hub feeling (destiny comes into mind) but also creative reasons, feeling you’re part of a larger operation etc. While I feel the hub has a lot of unrecognized potential, equating that to malicious intention rather than simply an unrealized concept is a bit excessive, and I’m sure you have lots of stories similar to that yourself.
I probably should have been more specific with what I meant. First is I’m not entirely opposed to purchasable cosmetics in a multiplayer game, especially if its not a full price title and will hopefully support a longer lifetime for the game. My problems with DTs cosmetics is 1) Still premium currency. While you can now buy a set bundle, I don’t believe you can just straight up buy only the Aquillas necessary to purchase a single item. Quite literally the only reason this exists is to make people spend more money. 2) is the fact that there are barely any significant cosmetics you can actually earn in game. 2 weapon skins? Really? And whether intentional or not the high level armor pieces are locked behind annoying or toxic penances, which pushes more people wanting to look “cool” to buy stuff from the shop. If you could earn premium currency or more varied cosmetics I would feel it was a lot less exploitative.
I’m going to be honest I don’t really know what that is/was.
I would still argue that it’s at least somewhat integral as the entire game after reaching level 30 is based around out. While you can do the content with lesser weapons, most people do the content so they can continue rolling to try and get a weapon they like more. I would say the gear casino is currently DT’s endgame.
Also you’ve said this before, but what does creative type mean? Do you just mean game devs?
Probably QA testers who think too much of themselves.
I’ve dealt with plenty of really bad ones who, as it eventually turned out, knew so little about game and game design in general(beside regurgitating what cookiecutter solution, buzzword…etc. they were “taught” in some online video, thinking they’re universally good ideas to push). And games were ruined because developers took them seriously.
Who would have expected that people who are only required to learn a little segment of the game for their job wouldn’t know better than players/modders who spent thousands of hours optimizing how to interact with the game’s systems and have weapon/equipment statistics memorized? /s
5 Likes
Just realized how real this is. That hurts me.
1 Like
Anyone else notice they’ve heavily weighted tier 2 perks in crafting and the shop since their patch to “up” the general stat distributions in the shops? It’s like they’re screwing with the dials to keep us from getting anything worth keeping while giving us the illusion of having a better chance. It’s infuriating.
7 Likes
Yep, they basically guarantee you’ll get a subpar blessing(worse, since it could be a low level one of the one you want lv4 of, you can’t get the lv4 you want when you upgrade to orange) if you buy from shop.
3 Likes
There’s your problem lol.
Kek, very true.
While I feel the hub has a lot of unrecognized potential, equating that to malicious intention rather than simply an unrealized concept is a bit excessive, and I’m sure you have lots of stories similar to that yourself.
Yeah, personally as it is it’s very much a feature that is to be filled in, like how we just started with emotes. I’d also say if you’ve got serious load times, changing an operative for a mission becomes a chore. Especially when loading into lobby of VT was sooo much nicer. As it stands for me the VT lobby is superior. To me, the DT lobby is a decision that follows downstream from a lot of the design decisions of the game, namely that you are an anonymous grunt in a system that churns you through a meat grinder, and 2 that you are 1 participant in a single collective event, namely this ‘cold’ (for 40k) war in the hive city.
My problems with DTs cosmetics is 1) Still premium currency. While you can now buy a set bundle, I don’t believe you can just straight up buy only the Aquillas necessary to purchase a single item. Quite literally the only reason this exists is to make people spend more money. 2) is the fact that there are barely any significant cosmetics you can actually earn in game. 2 weapon skins? Really? And whether intentional or not the high level armor pieces are locked behind annoying or toxic penances, which pushes more people wanting to look “cool” to buy stuff from the shop. If you could earn premium currency or more varied cosmetics I would feel it was a lot less exploitative.
1: Yeah, from my experience most of these in-game stores seem to work like this. I’d prefer a real cash store, like VT2. It’s simpler. That being said, honestly I’m just not bothered. I can understand ppls OCD being triggered by a few crumbs being left in an online store but in that case just buy the complete set or don’t buy anything? Like theres probably some way of getting what you want with minimal leftover. FWIW I’m coming from a place where I buy my family a burger king lunch this weekend and its 35 bucks.
2: Yeah, I wish there was more as well but this really comes down to what was the budget for creating those cosmetics vs other game assets. I think it will fill out with more free stuff as the game proceeds, provided the budget. In VT2 for instance they gave out for free paid cosmetics during the new year.
As it is though theres like what, maybe 6 or 7 free outfits in the game, then some more offerings in the docket store (which aren’t great, I’d grant). I agree some penances are garbage, I’m working on my sharpshooter one.
All that being said, yes they want to sell cosmetics to fund the game. If they didnt sell cosmetics, it’d be gameplay that is locked behind a paywall, which is way worse. For my part I hope they sell all the cosmetics they can, because I’m greedy and want more content for this game which I think is great fun. If, say, you had less faith in them than I exemplify here that’s all good in my book. But attributing malice for me would need more proof.
I would still argue that it’s at least somewhat integral as the entire game after reaching level 30 is based around out. While you can do the content with lesser weapons, most people do the content so they can continue rolling to try and get a weapon they like more. I would say the gear casino is currently DT’s endgame
I definitely agree. In my mind that endgame is a cream on the cake that is the actual game, which is going through a level at high difficulties and surmounting the odds. Really in some sense it’s the excuse we give ourselves to play the game, which is fun in itself, but in modern games we have this ‘collect resources’ loop that is needed. If you want to say that is ‘the game’ also I won’t dispute the semantics, but to me these are separate spheres of the game, of which I think the gear acquisition to be in some sense secondary. eg without previously referred to ‘actual’ game we would never care about the ‘end game’.
Also you’ve said this before, but what does creative type mean? Do you just mean game devs?
Within an entity like game production, movies, etc where you have teams there are teams that can be considered creative, like say the art department, and then not creative, like accounting(which isnt to say you can’t have creative accounting but that’s a different story). That’s where my language comes from. In case it needs be said, there isn’t a value judgement being placed here between the two groups. In life you need both.
The point is creative people will tend to speak in a certain way that is unguarded, open to interpretation, and exploratory. In game dev in particular I know there are ppl that literally coach creatives (and get paid well) to speak to the public, because the method of thinking and talking about a problem can be very different than the methods of thinking and talking of the public. Creative vs noncreative is one vector of that, but there are others I’m sure. Charitable vs Uncharitable for instance.
anyway wtf is wrong with me this is so long.
1 Like
This sums up my opinions on the game. You don’t feel like you are playing to complete the mission. You feel like you are playing to scavenge for mats and books like some rat in a maze. During firefight I find myself focusing on the material indicators instead of the enemy shooting at me. They designed the game around prioritizing the collecting of materials instead of completing the mission.
Maybe if emperor gifts were actually good people would care more. As it stands you get a reward each mission but they are complete junk most of the time and unusable. The emperor gifts should be the main way to acquire the strongest weapons. We shouldn’t have to click into a shop and spend coins for rewards. Let me play the missions for the best rewards .
I find myself constantly searching every corner of the map to find crafting materials that my team mates missed. Or to find which random spot the books will spawn in. It completely takes me out of the mission.
4 Likes
Yeah, though I’ll say I don’t mind emperor’s gift being relatively “just okay” since I think crafting really should be where we make good weapons great, but as it is right now it’s more like where we make already great weapons better due to locks. If our subpar gifts could feed into the crafting system better via the choice to surrender for mats I think it’d be better. The rat maze feel is definitely real.
1 Like
As someone who would have bought all the cosmetics for the game he liked in order to support it, despite never putting them on - which is basically what I do in VT2 - I think Fatshark is failing miserably with that approach in my case. I even find the price problematic, which is a bad sign in itself.
4 Likes
Thats a really interesting way of thinking about it I think it got some new perspective, thank you. I agree that people without creative experience can easily misinterpret design processes. I also think you’re right regarding a net loss in players if everyone got all the best rolled gear all the time. Could you call getting more mats on damnation difficulty a soft skill-gate? You get more materials for your time played if you can reliably clear damnation i suppose.
I was wondering if there was a more engaing way of progressing through the game than RNG? I’m no game designer, I have no experience creating anything so I don’t have any suggestions on the matter.
1 Like
I couldn’t put my finger on it but I think you said it well. Getting rewards in DT doesn’t feel as good as in VT because most of the time you get useless rewards that you exchange for other useless rewards. It doesn’t feel good to spend 300k dockets 2k plasteel and some diamantine, the culmination of 3 hours of mission time, and then get nothing.
4 Likes
This has been my only experience since the patch with crafting. The only item i’ve put into my arsenal since farming upwards of 50k plasteel, tons of ducats, and camping out profane items is a power sword on my vet i got from melks. I’ve all but given up now. Everytime i raise a profane item its bricked by a tier 2 perk or a tier 1 blessing. The return i get on my investment? 5k~10k ordo ducats. I’ve pissed away so much time and energy to make zero progress, its demoralizing.
4 Likes
You should feel proud for being allowed to play the game, you whiner. You are not worthy of the ineffable design for if you were, each time you get anything, even a single docket, should have been an orgasmic ecstasy.
3 Likes
They will never ever engage in an honest discussion about this, all you’ll get is corporate speech. Have this meme instead:
7 Likes
100% yes. You could create an engaging system that still requires “grind” but that is entirely deterministic, meaning zero RNG.
For example, let’s say that you level up and you unlock a base item type.
Go to the shop and spend money and you can get a basic item of that type. Imagine how that everything you play a mission with that weapon each stat goes up by 5%.
You collect crafting materials from the map and spend them to unlock perk/blessing slots. Maybe it costs 2500 plasteel to unlock a blessing slot (that’s a fair amount of grind). That then you spend about 1,000 plasteel to unlock a blessing for that specific weapon, and once locked in, costs an escalating amount of resources to upgrade the chosen blessing to higher tiers. Similar approach for perks. (These numbers are just for discussion)
You can pay diamantine/plasteel of course to swap in different blessings you’ve already unlocked for the weapon.
All told, imagine it taking about 10 hours of game time to fully upgrade an item with a set of perks and blessings. Might take another 10 to unlock all the blessings for that weapon type. If you want a second copy of that weapon with a different mix, might take another 10 hours to get it kitted out.
Now multiply this by the 67 weapon types in the game and you have something that going to take 1,000+ hours to unlock everything. But the key difference is that it is deterministic and playing the game gives you predictable progress towards a goal of your choosing. That agency. And that will keep players hooked and give a sense of reward after putting in the hard work.
3 Likes