I can't belive the wont remove the locks

[BFCInsomnia]

@brosgw

@SplatterCat

I mean the bad faith take is: you know it doesn’t matter, you just want to be mad.

It’s not in bad faith. It’s a straw man logical fallacy to say that the issues with crafting are non-issues because damnation is easy enough.

As he said: it’s not in bad faith. I cannot understand how so many people hold onto the idea that “because damnation is too easy”, “the crafting/ progression being sh*t/non-existant is fine”. These are two seperate issues and one does not excuse/mitigate the other! That’s a logical fallacy as @brosgw has pointed out.

@SplatterCat

so on any given day, say you play three matches, not one do you see one good perk for one of the hundred viable weapons? considering further that weapons of different marks can share relevant blessings.

There is a ton wrong with this: Yes after just playing 3 matches I do, infact, not get a single good item from either shops or the emp. gifts. Now what? Where do you wanna go from here? The funny thing is that even if I said that I can get something good after just 3 matches; IT’S STILL NOT UP TO ME (and yes my inventory is filled with useless items because selling them is not worth it; waiting for the update theat lets us turn them into crafting mats copium)

@SplatterCat

what Im trying to do is articulate the complaint for you, k? like out of Melk’s store, and Emps gifts, you never fined a good blessing on any of the three variations on any given “good weapon” like you literally have a inventory full of devilclaw’s and revolvers? (it be hard and off topic to name any other “bad” weapon)

Yeah no I get that much and that’s all fair and good.

Melk has given me a few good blessing I was chasing but not nearly enough to make me appreciate his existance, the Emp gifts might’ve been the first to give me PC4 but just a few hours after getting it from them, I got it again from crafting my 115th (yes I counted and no this doesn’t include all the PS’ I passed by un/knowingly) PS and then the following day from Melk. All this happens maybe once every 50 to 100h of playing which is absolutely not as frequently as it should, in a system over which you have nearly 0 control over.

@SplatterCat

its a matter of luck in the same way: not dying to a car that flew though your wall and hit you, is a matter of luck.

I find this a very fitting comparison since me getting what I want out of DTs crafting is about as likely as getting hit by said car because I live on the 3rd floor…
It also perfectly highlights what’s the issue here: a 100% reliance on luck with no agency at. all.

@SplatterCat

and the alternative, the reason this discussion matters: are you demanding that there be NO reward for playing a match, you don’t want drops, or currency, presumably you want to hit lvl 30 and pick the best weapon? thrilling, how engaging, don’t most ppl say the game has “no content” and demand that we are further not given anything true game play?

This is also very very far from the truth: Never have I, or anyone else sharing my view, even come close to claiming that we want any of the things you said here.

@brosgw

The locks actually gate MORE content than create more. Why the hell would I bother crafting a chainsword seriously when they under perform and I am still spending all my resources and time hunting for the force sword I want? If I got the force sword I want I would engage with more classes and weapon types.

This puts it very nicely so I’ll only add this: We simply want (and righfully expected) the crafting and progression to be closer to how it was in VT2. Some luck based elements that are not predatory and nice to get the stuff out of that you desired but are not entirely luck dependant.

What kept me playing VT2 to this day is the fact that experementing is as easy as “picking what I want” I didn’t have to chase the precice flamesword I wanted, I could just make it, maybe reroll it a few times untill it had the different properties I desired and then I was done in a matter of SECONDS, not months of potentially still not having what I want like it is in DT.

@SplatterCat

the content is in part about earning the content.

That is true, no argument there. The thing that seems to be misunderstood; how big a roll that that journey to your desired gear should play.
I’m personally asking for something closer to VT2s importance of gear: Doesn’t matter at all untill you get to max gear score and then very easely pick what you want and go enjoy what actually matters in a tide game: getting better and challenging yourself to more difficult things.

In DTs case however we got the exact opposite: Gear is (nearly) all that matters and there is not enough skill to chase. We are only chasing gear and the chase is simply not in our favour. This stiffles any and all desire to branch out and experiment.

@SplatterCat

unfortunately now I have a good example of every weapon for gardman and pyker.

You simply have the opposite philosophy to that of the older VT2 enjoyers. It’s not supposed to take you forever to get the items you want to then challenge yourself. Getting the gear isn’t supposed to be the challenge, that’s alll “we” have been asking for since the start!

@SplatterCat

Like thos games have a hook its jsut mods, not dev content. by that logic, L4D has far less weapons and a few less maps then DT currently has, and yet ppl say DT “has no content”

This also ignores entirely that you can PvP in L4D2 which adds infinte replayability since it was balanced so incredibly well. Also: what’s wrong with modders making new content and that keeping the game alive? I’d much prefer that over modders being relegated to the “QOL-department” for DT. Could you imagine what modders could create if given the same freedom as in L4D2?

“DT has no content” this is a byproduct of what we are chasing… since we are chasing gear through gathering mats in missions, we get tired of having to do that when we play. If we were chasing “self improvement” instead, the lower count of maps wouldn’t be as badly felt. I mean I’m still discovering new things about VT2s maps I’ve played on for 1500h and I’m not bored of them. Then again that might also be due to my prefference for the fantasy setting and the fact that not every map is metal or sand but that’s a problem I knew DT was going to have from it’s inception.

[SpaceShrimp]

Weird to see people defending a crafting system that is nothing but a bunch of RNG layers tacked onto each other that makes VT2’s crafting looks like perfection.

Especially when the original intent was to have the player control over fine-tuning their weapons.

Either through modifications, despite Hedge’s comment on how “this isn’t cod”.

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide - Official Gameplay Trailer

In this video, veteran with a lasgun that has a flashlight and regular iron sights rather than the red dot sights all of the lasguns have. Instead of having various “Marks” of a lasgun this seemed more like “take a base lasgun then add a sight, add shorter barrel for faster fire rate, pick a stock for stability vs movement, etc…

Flashlights seemed like an important part of the crafting system too given certain map modifiers like the blackout one.

Or by letting the players adjust the weapon’s various stats, as written in a blog from June 2022.

“So we did. We even infused all those details into the progression system, allowing players to tailor the weapon handling through a mixer-board-like stat system that makes your gun unique.”

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide - Dev Blog: Hybrid Combat - Steam News

Breaking the locks is basically just a band-aid fix until a more complete rework of the crafting.

[Ralendil]

I can’t believe that 6 months later we can still see such open threads when you can grab a random thread (between the 12k open) in the gameplay subforum…

Yes, they will not remove the locks. It is obvious…

But the locks aren’t the real problem.
I started a new vet a while ago (around april 1st), and I have almost everything I would want for a vet…bolter, helbore, mk III and mk VI power sword, combat axe, brautos, shredder autopistol , shotguns (all variants), plasma rifle etc.
But then again… I play too much. The problem isn’t getting what you want (if you can’t, you obviously tried really wrong), the problem is how long it takes you to get there.
Fatshark needs to reduce the time it takes to craft items and make Brunt’s Armory give better weapons.
I say it here, I don’t really have trouble getting what I want. But, I have my method, which is based on patience

[Merdoc]

What’s the point of having the locks?

[BFCInsomnia]

and I said more times than I care to recall, no amount of faster crafting “fixes”/“justifies” the existens of the locks…

@Ralendil

But, I have my method, which is based on patience

This might as well say “My method is to get lucky”…

[brosgw]

@SplatterCat

you definitely are not stupid

A digression but intellect (and therefore stupidity) are both relative qualities and cannot exist intrinsically in anyone, or anything.

@SplatterCat

Im looking at it as “progression” as in you want these weapons for a reason right? the content is in part about earning the content. befour you say that sounds crazy know i played nearly as many hours on MMOs and single player games as I did shooters.

We do not have a disagreement on definition of progression but lets be clear on something about this specifically. There is no disagreement about “earning” things. It’s more about getting the timing and pacing of that progression correct, and ensuring players feel their time is rewarded along the way. That it is fun. Because, primarily what is a video game? It’s function is merely to entertain and to have fun. Very few serve any other purpose (education for example). Therefore, anything “unfun” is antithetical to the primary function and purpose of that goal, the reason people buy this product. So the progression system needs to be as “fun” as possible.

No one (literally I haven’t heard a single person say this) has said they don’t want ANY grind. Just reasonable grind. DRG took quite a long time for me to acquire all the overclocks but I ENJOYED the process (mostly). And I LOVED that I could tweak and modify all aspects of my weapon. They even offered with the new season a randomizer button to randomly determine all aspects of your build for increased challenge.

I am still not done collecting all the research points in Helldivers but I also go for random loadouts unless I am playing serious difficulty.

Remnant from the ashes, took a very long time to get all the loot.

Warframe, I have other issues with but that was in principle ok for getting mods and upgrading them.

VT2, took me ~600 hours to get all the reds I wanted, ~800 hours to get all reds on all weapons so I could test things out with patch notes.

If you watch devs, who know what they are doing, they will often do “expected time to accomplish X”. For example, DRG wants roughly ~1 hour of play to equal 1 battle pass level. So for each season you would need 100 hours to compete.

You should design it so that if your players want to accomplish a goal, even if there is RNG along the way, there is an expected “time to completion” average to reach that target.

Now, that said. All players essentially have the same goal, just a lot of them will give up along the way and settle in Darktide.

Weapon(s):
380 base
Specific stat allocation
2 specific T4 perks
2 specific T4 blessings
Correct weapon and weapon mark.

Curio(s):
Perfect blessing
3 specific T4 perks

There is literally no way to achieve any of these goals in any reasonable or straight forward or fun manner. Even staunch defenders of the crafting system on the forums have all agreed that achieving these kinds of weapons is practically impossible. The system simply does not permit. Now they say that’s a good thing which is where I quite severely depart from their beliefs, but pretty much no one thinks you can reasonably achieve perfection in this system (despite fatshark promising it a couple months before pulling the curtain back on the monster they were hiding).

@SplatterCat

its hyperbolic but: when I start a souls game, I don’t ask why I cant pick every weapon on the map and port to the end of the game. or why I dont start a MMO with BIS gear. right? the point is to go get it?

In every souls game it’s deterministic levelling. You can acquire, with relative ease, your collection of perfect weapons. There will be guaranteed drops, and some random. But once you acquire them it’s impossible to “brick” an item. When you go to craft a weapon in dark souls you know exactly what you’re paying for and get an incremental increase.

MMO’s, especially free ones, use a very different model and often have microtransactions to skip the grind. That’s the REAL reason the grind is usually so bad. Instead of farming all the prime parts in warframe, I could just BUY them.

I have an alternative suggestion. The point of any game is to HAVE FUN. Not to simply collect perfect loot, and then never use said perfect loot and stop playing the game. You may as well turn open world games into a simple map you move a cursor over to clear all the little icons so you can get the “100%” dopamine rush since the game play seems irrelevant with that thinking in mind. The gameplay is a failure if it cannot incentivize you to engage with it simply because you have all the loot you would want. Especially if isn’t a game that builds itself around a story/campaign and is designed for replayability and through skill challenges.

@SplatterCat

like if the goal was “meta” you can reach it in a week, you can reach it in 6 games.

I don’t think so. Some people have played hundreds of hours and still not seen power cycler on power sword. I am not sure where you are getting your numbers but they seem quite skewed from reality. There’s also the option to hunt for off meta builds for fun or ideas. Or to be patch resilient for nerfs and buffs.

@SplatterCat

of evry weapon and I have less the 80 hours in it becsue “well I did it all, nothing will change now.”

I haven’t played aliens fire team, but it would be the challenge and fun of the gameplay. While you were playing it were you just annoyed with having to shoot things and just wanted to quickly get to the end to get better loot and loved your time in menus comparing loot and dreading the idea of getting back into shooting things?

If this is how you feel, give this one a shot. It’s up your alley.

@SplatterCat

Now, I can understand your take where you are coming from you probably played DMC V and had the full set of moves at the start, the game was about mastering the moves. Or any other examples but I think that wold kill the game as instant gratification is not, a good thing. IDK explain your take on this.

Incorrect. I do like progression, I do like some grind. I just also like achieving (within a reasonable time frame) maxed out gear so I can experiment with builds. Any game with deterministic levelling.

Table top RPGS (literally take years to get fully levelled assuming it even happens with real life stuff and the GM)
Other games with better loot progression (pretty much all)
VT2
Hell divers
Starship troopers extermination
All Souls games
Elite Dangerous
Carrier command 2
Deep Rock Galactic
Remnant from the ashes
Warframe
GunFire Reborn
Roboquest
Satisfactory
The Ascent
Gotham Knights
Killing Floor 2
Phasmophobia
Forewarned
Valheim
Shadow Warrior 2
Until you fall
Half Life Alyx
Pay Day 2
All bioshock games
All Castlevania games
Dark Messiah
Control
Dark sector
All Darksiders games
All destroy all humans games
Everspace 2
All God of war games
Hollow Knight
Just cause games
NieR:Automata
Ori and the blind forest, Ori and the will of the wisps
All Overlord games
All plague tale games
All saints row games
All modern tomb raider games
Doom games
Star wars fallen order
Star wars force unleashed games
Vampyr
The witcher games
Mass effect games
Dragon age games

^These are all games they don’t simply “give” you all upgrades at the beginning. Some have RNG, some are entirely deterministic. All have some form of permanent progression to be earned, and ALL are significantly better and more reasonable than darktide.

@SplatterCat

by that logic, L4D has far less weapons and a few less maps then DT currently has, and yet ppl say DT “has no content”

I don’t play Left 4 dead, but mods or not the point is infinite loot grind is not needed to retain players.

[brosgw]

To r̶e̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ reject players

[Ralendil]

@BFCInsomnia

This might as well say “My method is to get lucky”…

simple answer is… no it is not

[brosgw]

It is if you want a “perfect” curio or weapon.

[BFCInsomnia]

I mean… if you want perfect gear then yes you need to get lucky but if it’s not perfect gear you want then… what exactly are you waiting for?

[Ryshek]

I think they could be a part of progression

[freqlectic]

@brosgw

Like, easily the time I spend looking at items, breaking them down, comparing, selling, rolling perks (even with the mod), it’s an awful time sink that I could easily have squeezed another game or two out of.

I honestly dislike this portion of the “progession” system more than the locks. When crafting was released I logged in, realized that I’d have to spend a bunch of time just managing my inventory, without any good tools to do so, and that I had to do it even if I went for lowkey progression without actively buying from Brunt or chasing specific builds. I exited the game, added the tag “inventory management” to Darktide’s store page and didn’t start the launcher again until I needed to access that embarrasment of a community survey.

I’d be somewhat more happy with this whole situation if the “inventory management” tag became one of the prevalent user tags for Darktide. #infiniteGigglesLifeHack

---

The way Fatshark seem to be thinking and their expectations for how the community will engage with their product isn’t really new.

Someone at Fatshark mentioned that they made Vermintide 2 with about 100 h playtime in mind, yet they had challenges for finishing 50 missions on champions on each career which is easily 250 hours of gameplay (20 x 50 x 15 / 60 = 250) if you don’t speedrun Fort Burgerbarricade.

Alos, how many red weapons would you accumulate in 100 hours, even if all those hours were spent opening boxes on one max level character, and you taking the time to level up etc.? Would any of those red weapons (or trinkets) be something you want to engage in or something you were looking for? (Hello, my name is RNG.)

It has also been mentioned that Darktide was designed for a way longer playtime than Vermintide 2.

The above tells you quite a lot about Fatsharks mentality when it comes to experiencing their content. It’s like they don’t expect that their player want to engage in more than a fraction of what their game has to offer in terms of different experiences. I just find it sad that they are so ignorant about the points that make their games shine. I can imagine that they, in retrospect, are a bit embarrased about how much player agency they allowed by having weapon crafting without locks in Vermintide 2. I mean, you could re-roll to your heart’s content.

---

[Nutzer]

The level- and powergrind going from vt1 → vt2 felt like a slap in the face. Furthermore, once you had the traits you liked in vt1, you eventually could (shrine dlc 3 months after release) reroll the percentage on a trait specifically instead of rerolling everything like you have to in vt2. You can get red weapons from the mission board (dlc released 1 yr later) so even if you didnt get lucky rolls, you may work towards a red eventually.
Fatshark is a company proud that their CEO fixes coffee machines, I wish i was making that up.
Maybe the game will be better in a year from now, but know that this is nothing new from them, just a new low.

[brosgw]

Welcome to the battle #368.

[objc]

New community post claims they are looking into adjusting the locks. Not that they will remove them. More stringing along the remaining 2000 players.

[MarxistDictator]

So the same? Or worse? I dunno, with no actual traction or production to speak of on that front its just a continuation of Hedge’s post that crafting is a continuous not finished thing in this game. Back in ‘pre order early access’.

[anon93671839]

they could give weapons and exp level and the more you use them you can unlock them… or just not lock them at all for no reason.

[SplatterCat]

“I find this a very fitting comparison since me getting what I want out of DTs crafting is about as likely as getting hit by said car because I live on the 3rd floor…
It also perfectly highlights what’s the issue here: a 100% reliance on luck with no agency at. all.”
no you got it backwards I meant that the likelihood you never get anything good is luck like getting hit by the car. you mean to tell me that you never fond:

• a Laspistol
• Accatran Mk VIIa Recon Lasgun
• Agripinaa Mk I Infantry Autogun
• a shovle
• a hevy sword
• a force sword
• Duelling sword
• a knife with lacrate or excutioner, or even back stab
• a hellbore mk 1-3 with/or onsluaght
• A ** Kantrael MG**?? (just absolutly bone stock right out the box BIS)
• plasma gun (again, blaze away is just gravy)
• Head hunter auto gun mk.3 or mk.7 (or atleast the blessings, “Roulette” “opening salvo”, or “No Respite”
• auto pistol (fined no respite and it plays the game for you on any class on any level of skill.)
• A “tac axe” really most of them but mk7 is my fave)
• Agripinaa Or Kantrael shot-gun (no respite makes them)
• Braced auto gun (relay its okay, so long as you don’t like aiming, I cant get into them. but ALL the marks are viable)

that is what i meant that you never saw a drop or store listing with either a good roll of that weapon, or a good perk? you can play for 3 hours and never seen any of thos?

I realized in making this list No, that’s not what anyone is saying I may be looking to try and test evry wepon but most ppl jsut wan a power sword with PC 4, most ppl are only going to want the same item you see over and over. and now I can see a separate issue.

PPL speak broadly about “the system” but they only want PC4 on a power sword. ill admit it was som months before I knew about the perk and fond it, it was the last valuable thing i got.
Thay don’t want all the viable weapons thay want cavalcade on there stupid bolt gun haha. Thay dont care if a mk1 auto gun dose more dps.

haha, no, no, what i Man to say is there is a separate problem, and ppl are not invalid in feeling that there time was waisted in making the PC4 power sword, only to have it nerfed. even more so it was the Deves falt. : the problem is that the weapon everyone wants, Is relay bad, and after the nerf it became unusable, only PC4 making it mid.
the sword: was slow, low mobility, slow to react and use, Weak aguinst hard targets (the times I used PC4 to hit a crusher 7 times, jsut to have to recharge it and finish him off haunt me.) short doge and bad blocking, and if you want to wack guys close to you, you better have 4 seconds to spare.
And then they nerfed it so it doesn’t even kill hordes properly.
So it dosnt matter if the MK5 combat Axe has always been far better in every way, ppl want a power-sword, witch then needs PC to make it vaible

conclusion: its the devs fault for making The weapons ppl jsut want to use, realy bad, and Require a god roll to be used. its a flaw, the power weapons need to be returned internally, Id agree to that, but its the circumstance of the weapons, not the system.

finaly: “Also: what’s wrong with modders making new content and that keeping the game alive? I’d much prefer that over modders being relegated to the “QOL-department” for DT. Could you imagine what modders could create if given the same freedom as in L4D2?”

nothings wrong its just totally different is what im saying. like comparing “Elden ring” to GTA5 (online) Its not the same infrastructure at the base level.

[mesutozer]

They want us play more actually endlessly

[SplatterCat]

“It’s more about getting the timing and pacing of that progression correct, and ensuring players feel their time is rewarded along the way. That it is fun. Because, primarily what is a video game? It’s function is merely to entertain and to have fun. Very few serve any other purpose (education for example). Therefore, anything “unfun” is antithetical to the primary function and purpose of that goal, the reason people buy this product. So the progression system needs to be as “fun” as possible.”

No you are right, and I think there is a new problem to be idtentifyed outlined in:
“If you watch devs, who know what they are doing, they will often do “expected time to accomplish X”. For example, DRG wants roughly ~1 hour of play to equal 1 battle pass level. So for each season you would need 100 hours to compete.”

If you read at least the conclusion of my above post, You can get a BIS weapon in short order. (best in slot)
The problem is ppl don’t want a auto pistol with Pinning Fire. I think the sentiment that “the game discourages you from trying other weapons” is miss-framing, the game mandates that you try random weapons. But ppl want a PC4 power sword. the deves SHOULD know that, its not a new phenomenon that everyone picks one of 3 things that’s game design 101 and, making it a rare perk required to use the one weapon ppl want.

that is to say there is a larger issue, in how all the power weapons, (the ones ppl want to use, right?)
Suck, and at best have a single perk that makes them viable in one quirk like horde clearing.
So Id say the “reliance on RNG” is not true to get a good weapon, its True to make the most common weapons any good, that is a problem that is a rare scenario that ppl waist so much time in, and something needs to be done, i agree. but its a weapons problem, not the crafting system.