How and why nerfing difficulty will hurt the game. ( Patch 1.0.4 Please Read)

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
125

Just want to let you know that, that I don’t feel there was anything condescending in your original post. I felt it was very professional and that you were genuinely/respectfully responding. I’m not sure why anyone would say differently unless they were literally “looking” for something to complain about.

That being said, I am happy you and your team have been working on balancing this game and responding to feedback. Like one of the previous posters said it will likely be a “ping pong” back and forth of patches until a sweet spot is found.

Here’s to that sweet spot. I hope to see it soon, but until then keep up the great work. And take care!!

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126

What?

This kind of difficulty system is used in a lot of games. Are you really suggesting every single player who touches this game should be able to do the hardest difficulty in the game? I don’t see how mot being able to play a game at a certain difficulty is locking players away from certain content. Difficulties are used in pretty much most games, WoW has different tiers of raids but even if you dont have the best players in the game you can still eventually do all the most recent content on easier difficulties.

At some point you need to draw a line and say right this is the level of play we expect from people on this difficulty. So if people before thought it was too hard, but now its far too easy, should it not be brought back up a little bit?

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127

I wouldn’t call 1.04 legend ‘too easy’ at all. FS might need to tone up ambient enemies a little bit but It’s still significantly harder than champion and only a skilled team will be able to clear it.

People in this thread are acting like somehow toning the mode down made it into recruit baby mode but you still get three-shot by mob enemies, nearly one-shot by elites, and the game director still throws some nasty special combinations during hordes or boss encounters making team wipes still very common. I don’t know if they’re actually playing the mode, or just regurgitating what the OP responded with, because it’s still pretty difficult, just more fair about it.

Also a common argument I’m seeing is that “the highest difficulty should be for only a few people”. This argument is ridiculous when you consider that legend was (and honestly still feels like it is) significantly harder than Vermintide 1’s cataclysm difficulty, its hardest game mode… with the V2 being even more popular than V1, why in the world would you want to limit its hardest difficulty to an EVEN SMALLER subsection of its playerbase? Especially given that there’s no questboard like before, so now cosmetics and reds are even harder to get outside of legendary lootboxes?

I’ll say it again, if you find the game too easy then mix it up. You don’t need to use the overpowered weapons or class builds, nor is there anything stopping you from giving your bots level 5 items and using white weapons or lowering your power level. But stop being so selfish about this game and expecting fatshark to prioritize you over the masses.

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128

I feel the hardest difficulty available in the quick queue should be somewhat reasonable (around VT1 cata). This is because if the difficulty is “too much” the queue is harder to maintain. However, that’s just for quick queue, I don’t think the hardest difficulty the game has to be that: There should be ways to modify the difficulty to be harder for an organized & dedicated group. I think it should be kept away from matchmade games, because things might get convoluted (like with the current deeds).

The current deed implementation is kind of lackluster in that regard since the deeds are consumed on use and you get too few of them to constantly play. Also their difficulty is not consistent, so it’s hard to tell if you have improved or if the deed was simply much easier than the previous one. This increased difficulty could offer rewards comparable to or even greater than the matchmaking bonus, if appropriate. The rewards should probably be rather undertuned than overtuned in order not feel like obligatory (so people keep playing matchmade games).

Spitballing some ideas:
-Permanent deeds: They could be directly lootable or you could turn an existing deed into a “permanent” (that has a lesser reward than the consumable deed).
-Extractable modifiers: Deed modifiers like “nurgle’s corruption” (constant life drain) could be extracted from deeds via crafting and applied to (non-matchmade) games (think of Halo “skulls”).
-Craftable deeds: Current consumable deeds could be crafted to offer more reliable way of getting increased challenge.
-Sublevels: Incremental levels could be applied to (non-matchmade) games that just simply scale enemy stats appropriately with different factors for different enemy types (monster, infantry etc.). You could progress for example from Legend-5 to Legend-6 via this way.

129

don’t nerf the difficulty. Nerf the FF from ranged and from abilities. Some of careers are not even usable because of this. And random bouncing ult can oneshot your teammate. You can’t even control that thing.

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130

Read: I saw balancing and saw nerf. Here is the thing. Not all aspects, systems or dynamics that create difficulty are equal. More importantly not all difficulty is meaningful. They could make ever enemy have 100% hit rate, never miss and do 1000% of your health in damage. That would make it the most difficult game out there. Ensuring a 99.9% failure rate. No one would play it. The fact of the matter is, on Champ and Legendary the specials were being spammed. If a player did this, you would decry the “cheap” tactics. Groups still fail very often and it’s still requires good teamwork to be successful. This won’t change before or after any nerfs. If they go too far they can roll it back. It’s not the end of the world…

131

Fuplaayz has been a pillar of the Vermintide community for years now. I’ve been following his stream since way before V2 was even rumored.

When he’s not pug’ing legend he runs with several other well known V1 veterans. He is at expert level of mechanics knowledge and execution and his insight and opinions on the end game have far more value than your juvenile jabs and fake elitism.

now you know

have a nice day

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132

I don’t know but for most of the players its not funny if they get spammed with specials, like 33 gutterrunners 2 packmaster 2 leeces at once. This is not fun this is sad.

One example totday i played a deed on legend with increasd special spawns and i had less specials than in a normal quickplay legend.

if they fix the count of the specials and increase the dmg instead i think it would be a better playexperience for most players sure not for you and the other 1 % hardcore veteran v1 players. But thats another point, see you are a probally a verry good player like as the other 2% v1 hardcore veterans, and i think its a bit unfair if fatshark would respekt the 2% and dont tweak the dificulty.

Also if the modsupport is online, there will be a lot of mods with even crazier modes than legend, so i dont think that players will stop playing it so quickly. :slight_smile:

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133

it’s unfair to the V1 veterans who sunk hundreds or thousands of hours in the first game and kept the community alive if the hardest difficulty caters to people who don’t want to improve beyond ‘above average’ level play. You can obtain all the best items in the game(reds/cosmetics) from champion chests alone. That end game already exists for the “98%” as you call it.

Yes there will be mods for extra difficulty beyond Legend, but the game shouldn’t be balanced around Mods filling the gaps. In V1 if you just wanted the loot and no challenge you could spawn in any item you wanted with a mod. No faster way to lose interest in the game too.

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134

I’m sick of such nonsense arguments. The reality is that, no matter how hard the game is, there are plenty of people out there who will claim its too easy, and will demand the difficulty be increased to whatever absurd preference they have. Legend is much harder than Cataclysm was due to the frequency of specials, the larger size of hordes, the fact you can get multiple bosses, and the mere existence of chaos patrols.

If I have learnt anything from being in a gaming community for such a long period of time, its that some people will not be satisfied no matter what you do. Just because a tiny fraction of the community could handle Deathwish in the previous game, does not mean it should become the default mode for everyone else. That is absurd. Legend is extremely difficult for a very significant portion of the community - even more so if you Quick Play with strangers. Suggesting you can actually come up with something “difficult” for people who have hundreds and thousands of hours of mastery at the game is utterly absurd.

For people who want that added thrill over what is currently available, you will have deeds, and you will have mods. The rest of the game should not be screwed up for everyone else just because a tiny fraction of the community is not sated. Legend is plenty challenging, to the point where less than 1% of the communtiy has beaten Skittergate on Legend. There will no doubt be a Deathwish mod for the masochists.

I am in a fairly common position (of which many people from VT1 have echoed) of Champion (old Nightmare) being pretty easy for a person of my experience. The issue is that, in spite of this, Legend (old Cataclysm) is still very much challenging, even more so when played in a pick up group. Your proposal would leave players like me in no mans land, stuck between the ease of Champion and the absurdity of Legend.

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135

I may have missed it in the thread (if so my apologies), but have you played on the balance testing branch yet? If so, any thoughts on the legend difficulty there?

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136

“I’m sick of such nonsense arguments. The reality is that, no matter how easy the game is, there are plenty of people out there who will claim its too hard, and will demand the difficulty be lowered to whatever absurd preference they have. If I have learnt anything from being in a gaming community for such a long period of time, its that some people will not be satisfied no matter what you do.”

Your rationale operates equally well for the other side.

You can stop at Champion if you want. You can get all rewards currently known by playing Champion. Nobody is forcing you to inflict Legend upon yourself if you do not like it. Only your own pride.

I don’t see any problem here anymore than I see Dark Souls New Journies being a problem or even Cuphead being a problem. Thankfully, Vermintide 2 caters to a wide range of skill levels via varying difficulties.

There are many things wrong with this. First of all achievements are a terrible way to measure this as it includes every purchase and install including those who played like 10 hours and stopped. Secondly the game hasn’t even been out that long, some people have a life and don’t have 100+ hours in the game. Lastly why would that even be a problem if the other 99% have difficulties that are appropriate for their skill level?

Considering that there are people that already clear Legend on a regular basis, sound like you have a challenge to overcome. There are two methods to try and do so. One method is to improve your skill at the game via practice and study. The other is to come to the forums and try to get it made easier so that you can handle it.

I’m in a similar situation to you atm. I’m pretty comfortable with Champion, but Legend is a hurdle to be overcome and that’s ok. One day I will run legend consistently and be one of the better players instead of one of the mediocre players. It means there is room for me to improve and if I decide one day that I don’t feel like it’s worth it then I’ll just play Champion. It’s not like Champion is devoid of entertainment or anything, you still walk a pretty fine line and things can still go south pretty fast even if you personally play well.

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137

So what do you think hurts fatshark more: losing 98% of thier playerbase, because they barly win any legend game or lose 2 % of the hardcore players (most of them will still play ahead even when they ‘nerf’ legend what they dont want, as far i understand it they want tweak it just a little.)

Yes i know this make no sence but its an example.

And yeah you can get reds from Generals and Empororschests but as the code says its only 1-4 % drop chance while the Legendpeasant’s starts with 3.4%

Personally i like the dificulty of legend but since the game is new and fatshark works with the comunity i will wait and see whats happen before bitching around.
I mean there are people out there who think it would be too difficult on recruit. And the other players think what even more easier?

Well and if you use cheat mods its your own fault of destroying the fun not the games fault.

And again why is it wrong to open legend to few more, than only these v1 veterans and really good players.
Maybe we will see some more new names in our games when we play legend. :slight_smile:

138

I have been following this thread since it was posted, and I figured I would finally type out a reply because of how annoying I find your posts to be. I am essentially entirely new to the franchise with the release of VT2, and I only dabbled with the first game leading up to the release of the public beta just so I could get an introduction to the series. Since release, I have played the game many hours and have progressed from barely being able to hack it in Recruit to doing full book runs on Champion without too much effort. I eventually made a foray into Legend right around the same time 1.0.4 hit the live build. It was definitely challenging, and while a good amount of fun, I didn’t find it as fun as full book runs on Champion. I felt that there were far too many “ok, now it’s time for you to fail” moments orchestrated by the AI Director. That and I felt like the supposed “challenge” wasn’t worth the possible reward. Difficulty spikes happen on both Champion and Legend, but in the case of Legend, they just seem downright unfair in a lot of cases.

I played 1.0.5 the first day it was put live on the beta branch. I did one or two full book runs on Champion with randoms and felt like I had experienced enough. With all of the drama, I fully expected things to change even from what was on the test build, so I just went back to the live build. All of this is to say that I have played VT2 extensively at this point in time and I am fully aware of what Legend is like on 1.0.4. I have not played Legend on 1.0.5 and I have no desire to. I can make inferences about what it’s like from having played Champ on the beta build.

OP’s entire commentary about maps being “totally empty” and “devoid of Elites and armored enemies” is completely and utterly overstated. Having done a fair share of Legend runs on 1.0.4, the maps are in no way “totally devoid” of tougher enemies. If anything the 1.0.4 build is totally insane on Legend in terms of how things can spawn from one run to the next. One run may feel like a relative breeze if you get no boss spawn and you manage to not get caught with your pants down in the middle of a horde. On other runs the AI Director decides to simply delete you from the game as multiple disablers, a horde, and a boss all come at you at the same time. The increase in difficulty from Champion to Legend is still very much in place on the 1.0.4 build and any mistakes at all are harshly punished. My winrate on Legend with randoms in pick up games is abysmal (as it probably should be).

Having experienced 1.0.4 Legend for myself around the same time you had made your original post, I think that you are doing the community a potential disservice by claiming that the game isn’t hard enough. The game is already hard enough as it is, and potential difficulty spikes make the game even harder. Only 1% of ALL PLAYERS ON STEAM have completed Skittergate on Legend. Only 5% or so have even completed Skittergate on Champion! Most players haven’t even leveled their heroes to level 30, let alone grinded to 30+50 looking for Red or Cosmetics. The fact of the matter is that your view of the game is completely different from what the vast majority of the player base perceives.

Given how overinflated your posts came across, I decided to check out your stream yesterday to witness the supposed grandeur of your Legend runs. I ended up watching a decent amount of the VOD from yesterday to get a decent sample size. The first thing I noticed is that you only ever run the most meta and/or OP builds. In the games I saw you play, I only ever saw you run BH with repeater, Sienna Beam, and IB Bardin with grudgeraker. Anyone who has played the game on higher difficulties knows these are far and away some of the best overall classes to play. Your groups were also composed of essentially all top meta picks (more or less).

But what’s funny to me is the huge contrast between your posts here and how your Legend runs actually proceed. I assume you were playing on 1.0.5 (mostly because of your blatant elitism as demonstrated in this thread), but wasn’t entirely sure as it was difficult to tell based on only trying to observe stagger on Elites, etcetera. On one particular run on Empire in Flames, you were playing Beam Sienna and were pounded into dust by a mini Chaos Patrol before you could even get past the wagon caravan at the beginning of the level. Your team then proceeded to be slowly divided and killed off by the remaining members of that same patrol, along with a couple of specials. Your group didn’t even make it inside the town gate.

I skipped ahead on the VOD and watched footage of a few more games. You had several wipes in a row where your group couldn’t seem to manage a horde and some specials at the same time. There was one particularly embarrassing run where you couldn’t manage to kill one Chaos Warrior and then the rest of your group was snagged by disablers, promptly ending your run. There was another not long after that one where you were overwhelmed by a Stormvermin pack and some specials on Festering Ground. You wiped pretty quickly there too. The only runs you could consistently complete were those where the special spawns were a bit more reasonable and you had no unreasonable Boss spawns. That’s about it.

There was one run on Hunger In The Dark that sticks in my mind more than the others. For this particular run you were running with only one friend from your premade lobby. Two randoms ended up joining. All you did for the majority of the run was make offhand comments about how “bad” these players were in both your Twitch chat and the in-game chat. It was obvious that these players were only trying to cut their teeth in Legend and all you did was make the experience more negative for them (in my opinion). No one wants to be told that they are playing poorly when they are only trying to improve their game. But you, God of all things Vermintide, think it’s okay to mouth off about how great you are and how bad everyone else is. The funny thing is that you fail on the highest difficulty with pre-made teams and the most meta builds ALL THE TIME.

I sincerely hope that no one at Fatshark takes your feedback about the game seriously, especially any feedback about the higher difficulties. Your blatant elitism is beyond toxic and in my opinion is a total detriment to the vast majority of the player base and the game as a whole.

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139

Watching his streams and his now absence from this topic make it pretty much obvious he was just advertising his twitch channel. You put it quite succeedly and you get alot of credit for actually sitting through the atrocity that is watching OP playing (I remember watching one his streams where they were discussing how Sienna or Keri looked down below… stay classy, fuplaayz, stay classy).

p.s.: Grape Juice sucks :stuck_out_tongue: Everybody knows it’s called purple drank.

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140

Ugh, like some other folks I checked out OPs stream and, well, good grief!

Lots of hordes and elites and specials, lots of wipes, and especially lots of OP being a jackass and rude AF to other people playing.

Here’s hoping Fatshark doesn’t pay any attention to his “feedback.”

141

Good Read. Thank you for your feedback, i shall take it under consideration. :+1:

142

I read every comment on this post. If you think i come to these forums to “advertise” myself, you are mistaken.
On my streams we discuss all of sort of aspects about the game, balances, bugs etc etc … And yes sometimes, we (i) joke about “if the carpet matches the drapes”. Sometimes i forget that it might be “too graphical” for some viewers, i apologize. However i thank you for taking your time to watch, don’t hesitate to pop by and say hi.
Also : It’s Grape Juice and i’m making an emote out of it.

143

Yes, wiping is part of Vermintide experience. I mostly play with my friends lately and they know how frustrated i get when i screw up. But they are people i know i play with for some time now and know how passionate i’m about the game. Remember if you enjoyed playing with somebody don’t hesitate to add them to your friend list, it’s a good way to make friends.
As for “being rude” that’s gross misrepresentation and i would appreciate for you to at least put things in context.
Fatshark reads, follows and surveys the comments, videos, twitch, youtube, forums and so on. They collect feedback from different people and many places, this forum being one. You are free to leave you feedback as well.

144

Just teasing a bit, don’t take it too seriously, it’s all in good fun.

P.S.: PURPLE DRANK :smiley:

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