Hive Scum Pickpocket complaint

[Rickenbacker]

Those takes are def stupid because its pve SHOOTER and why someone should care about you your melee? Like we both can play this game but it has 2 styles if u dont want to play with desperado hs - leave and find a team of the same melee guys. I do it all the time with smoke vets and smykers

Youre so triggered because you see INFINITY ammo written right in front of your eyes but you dont see the elephant for years: For two years Im shooting none stop as vet on agri braced because it has insane dmg/ammo economy and I saw a few guys do the same. Dudes with fastest recons and infantry prekilling hordes. Lol but the good ol assail do everything can do the HS better. Why I dont see your complaing about new buffs to ogryn? Because achyl+reload on crit with burn stacks is op beyong any term (ult restore 50% of spent ammo)

Is so funny to see the cries of melee dudes but you will be always outside just naturally thats why the knights died in real world lmao

[BizarreSalp]

@Murderer

I think the issue is that making ranged balanced and actually feasibly an exclusive playstyles is not reconcicable with actual tide gameplay AS IT EXISTS NOW

I disagree with your premise.

@Murderer

there are no actual ranged mechanics other than point and click, compared to melee which needs you to block, dodge, judge cleave and stagger appropriately etc.

This is a misleading simplification of gunplay. Yeah, DT’s mechanics aren’t made that well, but in this they work well. You have to be better at dodging and kiting to play ranged-only than even melee, since you can’t block.

Even the shooting is not simple; you have to manage reloads and magazine management, and while people keep pretending you don’t have to aim, that’s patently false, since there are numerous targets that you aim differently for; your damage is massively boosted on Monsters by aiming for heads, Crushers can only conceivably be killed by aiming for the head, Scab Bruisers are much easier to kill if you aim at heads, Maulers must be aimed at the body - you are constantly aiming, as well as fighting recoil. Fighting Maulers is actually much easier with melee weapons (barring using one of the very underperforming melee options) because of how many weapons can basically ignore carapace. I don’t think there are many (or at least not many) melee weapons that actually look at Maulers and go “oh I better aim for body hits because the Flak armor is more vulnerable!).

The only “issue” is that people have been playing FPS games for years so they no longer think about these issues.

@Murderer

the ranged options are all designed for hybrid classes at most, where they’re designed to be better-than-melee but limited, and are thus very strong compared to e.g. L4D guns, where you need to funnel enemies into chokes because the guns can’t deal with things otherwise.

Yes, I’ll grant you that most ranged weapons are tuned higher because of limitations. This is a numbers issue, and the best course would have been to give a damage reduction if you choose to use Pickpocket.

@Murderer

the fundamental game design assumes attrition if you just shoot without a care, specials wise, too. In other games you have a backup weapon for this. In Darktide this would mean a huge rebalance one way or other.

Most classes and builds have something that sets them apart; a mechanic they get to ignore in as a boost. Ogryn can bowl enemies over with a dodge. Vets get infinite grenades. Arbites gets damage caps on hit. Having infinite ammo is what Hive Scum (at least shooty scum) was built around.

@Murderer

New enemies with ranged mechanics COULD be added, or existing ones change (like shooting armor plates off a crusher or something)

Yeah, I think this would be good.

I think we just fundamentally disagree on the problem. I mean, Scum can still spend most of the game shooting; the nerf literally failed to reign it in; all it did was impact the fun of the class by creating an annoying number of times where you just can’t use the main weapon you built for, your gun. The entire class fantasy.

Which, incidentally, is embodied by this insane movie opening XD (Predator 2).

Predator 2 1990 Opening heat wave shootout scene

I always imagine these crazy thugs whenever I’m playing HS.

A nerf to damage/cleave IF you choose Pickpocket would open up a whole lot more options while allowing for more specific tailoring by tinkering with that damage number.

What’s really crazy here is that no one is talking about the new talent they added that increases dodge distance by 50%. This is an INSANE boost to HS’s survivability, to the point where I can easily just walk into hordes while reloading and never get touched. THAT is broken. XD

[Index]

@Rickenbacker

complaing about new buffs to ogryn?

maybe your reading is as bad as your logic? dunno, don’t care.

ogryn revamp I opted for nerfing bully 3 and blo right away, never used it for the time be.

bought both dlc’s, shelved for how little effort they take now, no sport.

since I don’t play dakka ogryn for its cheapness I can’t tell about recent changes, if true, nerf it accordingly

@Rickenbacker

Like we both can play this game

we won’t, the likes of you get kicked if you prove too annoying and there’s that, really nothing complicated.

@Rickenbacker

knights died in real world lmao

lmao indeed if you think some unwashed street thugs with pew pew are anywhere near the worth of a true warrior.

trash comes in abundance, gems are rare….

this here’s about respect towards ingame skill, holding mouse 1 isn’t one of it

@Rickenbacker

melee dudes

hmm until now darktide was pretty melee centric, how you made it even this far so mad?

fact is if some mere shooting gets you more for less effort I won’t tolerate it in my game, neither respect the one resorting to it as his only way to keep up.

[Murderer]

@BizarreSalp

You have to be better at dodging and kiting to play ranged-only than even melee, since you can’t block.

This is untrue. Enemies can’t catch up to you, so you really just need to be good at backpedaling and spam dodging backwards. You avoid most of the situations where you would have to dodge in the first place.

Kiting is not actually interesting gameplay, it can be summed up as “players are too fast so you can just play keepaway”. It’s not actually engaging in any way.

@BizarreSalp

Even the shooting is not simple; you have to manage reloads and magazine management,

Completely irrelevant on weapons like dual autos where they have big mags and quick reloads. If this was about the revolver, shotgun or stubbers it might be relevant but most weapons don’t work that way and simply never have a real opportunity cost/break in the action for reloading

@BizarreSalp

while people keep pretending you don’t have to aim, that’s patently false, since there are numerous targets that you aim differently for;

It’s a pve game with canned animations. I admit a new player has to learn these things first but aim doesn’t factor into a game as static as this in the long run. You just aim head level and unload unless it’s a mauler where you aim at their dicks. This isn’t actually interesting engaging gameplay it’s just a knowledge check.

Recoil mechanics also barely exist, it just kicks up slightly and always the exact same way so the “counter” means moving your mouse down. There was one gun with relevant recoil (bolter) and it got changed so it no longer kicks as hard.

@BizarreSalp

The only “issue” is that people have been playing FPS games for years so they no longer think about these issues.

These aren’t issues or engaging gameplay mechanics, these are fundamental things about FPS that anyone who has been gaming learned 12 years ago. And anyone who hasn’t been gaming probably got them by the time he’s in malice.

You’re more or less describing basic controls, not mechanics that require engagement or challenges for anyone who has gamed for over a week or two total. The reality remains that hive scum ranged gameplay boils down to

1. magdump and point at enemies who move predictably and don’t react to anything you do because it’s a pve game, infinite ammo so nothing matters
2. backpedal and spam op dodges backward
3. rarely push a burster if you don’t want to grief and shoot him with allies near (only actual engaging mechanic)

It’s insanely boring and one dimensional

@BizarreSalp

Having infinite ammo is what Hive Scum (at least shooty scum) was built around.

It’s a bad concept even if so. He also has the better dodges, speed and extreme damage capabilities, stimms and powerful unique weapons that apply the strongest dot in the game. It’s not like infinite ammo is his one defining characteristic and he has to keep it.

@BizarreSalp

Scum can still spend most of the game shooting; the nerf literally failed to reign it in;

I agree, hence why I’m saying it should probably be reigned in more. They’re not going to make ranged actually interesting, so they can’t let people just skip meleeing too much.

[BizarreSalp]

@Murderer

Enemies can’t catch up to you

I guess we’re not playing the same game, since enemies can catch up to you in all ‘tide games.

@Murderer

you really just need to be good at backpedaling and spam dodging backwards

Okay lol now I’m sure we’re not playing the same game.

@Murderer

Kiting is not actually interesting gameplay

In your opinion. And that’s the problem with your entire argument; you don’t think anyone should be able to play a certain way because you don’t like it. That’s not an argument. You can certainly hold that opinion, but it’s like saying mustard should not exist because you don’t like the taste.

Just don’t eat it. Stop trying to ruin everyone else’s dinner.

[Amelia]

if only kiting was skillful as in vt1 and vt2, but it’s not, cause in dt you can just outrun enemies even without sprinting

[Murderer]

@BizarreSalp

you don’t think anyone should be able to play a certain way because you don’t like it.

I mean I made actual arguments as to why ranged mechanics are not complex unlike melee mechanics in tide games. The counterargument you brought was “but you still have to aim” which anyone who has played a horde shooter before knows is not actually a complex mechanic, you end up knowing how enemies move, and “there is recoil” which I’m not sure why you even thought this adds any depth, it’s not like CS where you have to learn recoil patterns.

You can actually discuss gameplay mechanics and their depth without veering off into subjectivity, which is what I did. I never once said “I don’t like it and that’s why it shouldn’t be in the game”, my whole point is that ranged mechanics in tide games serve only to actually CIRCUMVENT the main mechanics of the game that the entire game is built around, which is the defensible argumentation for why I think that a ranged-only playstyle would be bad design, and the complaints about pickpocket hive scum drive that home.

[Frish]

@Murderer

2. the ranged options are all designed for hybrid classes at most, where they’re designed to be better-than-melee but limited, and are thus very strong compared to e.g. L4D guns, where you need to funnel enemies into chokes because the guns can’t deal with things otherwise.

To me this is a massive component of why pure ranged won’t work the way most people perhaps would want it to work.

The guns are strong, and punchy. They feel great to use, but they have the intentional drawback of finite ammo.

When you remove that limitation, they break the game.

@BizarreSalp

A nerf to damage/cleave IF you choose Pickpocket would open up a whole lot more options while allowing for more specific tailoring by tinkering with that damage number.

This would ameliorate the issue, but would also draw enormous criticism from gunplay enjoyers for the watered-down experience I’m sure. It’s one of my favourite suggestions* tbh, but I also worry that it would build bad habits by allowing players to not engage with core gameplay mechanics and therefore perform worse overall. 100% gunplay isn’t a crutch, it’s a wheelchair.

So if we have strong guns then we can’t have unlimited ammo. But what about weak guns? I mean, why not let players flip the script and gun down hordes but have to melee elites? Maybe some people want that idk. But mowing down mixed hordes infinitely, I can’t see a way that it could be balanced.

That’s why I think 100% ranged weapon uptime is not a reasonable expectation to have for this game. Either you destroy the effectiveness of the weapon, or you destroy the foundations of the hybrid combat system (for everyone).

ONE melee elite kill was a pretty minimal nerf – like what are you doing that this isn’t happening already – and people are still spitting the dummy over it.

@brosgw

1.) Make it so that when you’re “out of ammo” you rely on bootlegged ammo and your ranged weapons suffer all kinds of penalties.

*This is my favourite suggestion

[EggFever]

@Murderer

it’s not like CS where you have to learn recoil patterns.

Off topic but they should do this for the braced autogun

[BizarreSalp]

@Frish

100% gunplay isn’t a crutch, it’s a wheelchair.

Bro, it’s one build of one class. I love melee, I play every class. But let one build on one class play a fantasy. It’s not any worse than Psyker.

@Frish

ONE melee elite kill was a pretty minimal nerf – like what are you doing that this isn’t happening already – and people are still spitting the dummy over it.

Because it goes against the class fantasy. XD Imagine if Slayer in VT2 was altered so that he had to get a ranged kill sometimes.

[Archon_Dagoth]

Ranged gameplay in the hybrid game is “le bad design” but infinite melee, pushing, sliding and dodging (which “CIRCUMVENT the main mechanics of the game that the entire game is built around”) are fine.

They also don’t call this gatekeeping/lying/bias when they do it, they see themselves as holders of a higher truth or smt. When in the end, ppls just enjoy the dakka man, we are not holding your precious melee hostage, I swear. Melee scum got giga buffed, ogryn rework killed PBB and gave giga buffs to hybrid/melee ogryn, in which the ranged ogryn hasn’t recovered from to this day, I also don’t rememeber a single soul even here in this place, asking for PBB/twin-stubber nerfs, that was recognized as “meme at best” even back then. I don’t count Paul explosive special as “ranged damage” btw.

I can promise you guys, ranged classes are not gonna cancel hybrid or melee playstyles, and it’s not gonna cancel VT3 either, please let us ranged-Timmies enjoy the show too, ty.

[Murderer]

At least quote me if you’re gonna quote me. Or are you specifically trying not to send me a ping so I don’t see your histrionic meltdown?

@Archon_Dagoth

Ranged gameplay in the hybrid game is “le bad design” but infinite melee, pushing, sliding and dodging (which “CIRCUMVENT the main mechanics of the game that the entire game is built around”) are fine.

Dodging, sliding, pushing, meleeing isn’t “circumventing” the main mechanics, those ARE the main mechanics. You are making no sense

@Archon_Dagoth

They also don’t call this gatekeeping/lying/bias when they do it, they see themselves as holders of a higher truth or smt.

Which part is lying or gatekeeping? I’m just talking about game mechanics. You are extremely emotional about this and basically just telling me that my simple arguments made you really confused and sad, which I can honestly sort of believe, you seem very underequipped to understand even basic deductions

@Archon_Dagoth

When in the end, ppls just enjoy the dakka man, we are not holding your precious melee hostage, I swear.

Literally did with old HS in aurics, but ok. That’s the whole point of the complaint and we’re already pretending it never happened. You are delusional

@Archon_Dagoth

ogryn rework killed PBB

??? do you mean the flame stacks that got reshuffled to make him do a bit less boss damage but increase his time to kill on all elites by roughly 150%?

@Archon_Dagoth

in which the ranged ogryn hasn’t recovered from to this day,

??? It’s fairly playable on H40 right now, the buffs from the ogryn rework and the latest buff culminated in an actual ranged playstyle that works for H40 (you still don’t wanna run it without a vet aura but that’s always been the issue with vet aura, they can’t balance other classes ammo econ due to it, and suggesting a rework on it makes people screech)

Literally extremely weird mindset to have, to pretend that ranged balance issues can’t affect the game negatively for everyone. Balance issues involving ranged weapons absolutely have the potential to turn the game into a walking simulator for everyone else involved in quickplay, and HS pickpocket actually did unless the person piloting the build was very, very bad.

[Frish]

Hehehe, I hyperbolise

To be clear, I got nothing against people wanting to play ranged. But to do so at the detriment of others, not a fan. Pickpocket pre-nerf was oppressive and unbalanced. It’s less so now, but clearly not perfect.

Also, I don’t think you can 100% ranged OR melee as a reasonable expectation in this game outside of self-imposed challenge runs or sheer unremitting gumption.

Edit: Wait a second… doesn’t Slayer not even get a ranged weapon..?

[alsozara]

@Archon_Dagoth

“le bad design” but infinite melee, pushing, sliding and dodging (which “CIRCUMVENT the main mechanics of the game that the entire game is built around”) are fine.

I dunno where you’ve been. I was discussing how it’s bizarre sprint sliding stops stam usage with @anon61080228 literally within the last 24 hours. Also seen heaps of people comment that dodging is overpowered in this game.

[anon61080228]

@BizarreSalp

Slayer in VT2 was altered so that he had to get a ranged kill sometimes.

Slayer is a melee class that exists in a melee centric game.

Almost all DT enemies are copypasted from V2 and play in close range.

Besides that Slayer has a range option - throwing axe, with extremely low “ammo” cap you need constantly reload or pick up manually, or refill on headshots but asks to put a perk for that.

The proper example would be the waytstalker, but even if you play hagbane bow spam build you still need to play in melee a lot and your ammo refill tied to kills made with ability.

[alsozara]

@BizarreSalp

Because it goes against the class fantasy. XD Imagine if Slayer in VT2 was altered so that he had to get a ranged kill sometimes.

I actually just want to point out in VT2 you can build a very melee centric Bounty Hunter where you mostly melee but want to shoot every ten seconds to proc hunter and other buffs off your free shot passive.

That build was awesome TBH.

[SoSollEsSein]

@Archon_Dagoth

Ranged gameplay in the hybrid game is “le bad design” but infinite melee, pushing, sliding and dodging (which “CIRCUMVENT the main mechanics of the game that the entire game is built around”) are fine.

uhm… well, all the pushing, sliding and dodging needs exceptional skills, muscle-memory and situational awareness on higher/the highest difficulty levels. One mistake and you’re probably down. In general, the inherent risk in close combat is therefore significantly higher than in ranged combat. And people already mentioned that the endless sliding should probably be nerfed. But all the other melee actions you mentioned drain stamina. That is a limiting factor. And a block can stun you for a short time where you are totally vulnerable.

[BizarreSalp]

@Frish

But to do so at the detriment of others, not a fan. Pickpocket pre-nerf was oppressive and unbalanced. It’s less so now, but clearly not perfect.

Yeah, that’s fair, man. We agree here.

The problem isn’t that there was a nerf, it’s how the nerf was done. I’ve been saying all along that it should be nerfed, but the way they nerfed it damaged the class fantasy.

@Frish

I don’t think you can 100% ranged OR melee as a reasonable expectation in this game outside of self-imposed challenge runs or sheer unremitting gumption.

Yeah, the problem tho is that the change is just like having a really boring mini-game pop up when you want to actually be playing. Desperado is often on cooldown, and it will frequently happen that you aren’t sustaining with Pickpocket, you are just “almost out of ammo” most of the time.

Most critique of what I say is just people knee-jerk reacting about how they think the game should be played because they were (understandably) annoyed about how the HS would just shoot most enemies on screen. It’s just emotional outbursts and weird arguments (like one guy who kept insisting that FPS gameplay is “degenerate” lol) that ignore that I’m calling for it to be balanced. If the DPS was balanced, then there simply would not be an issue here, but people continually make a straw man attack because of their gut reaction.

@Frish

I don’t think you can 100% ranged OR melee as a reasonable expectation in this game outside of self-imposed challenge runs or sheer unremitting gumption.

Occasionally, I would pull out my tac axe, yeah. I prefer to just dodge around and reload, and keep shooting, even if melee would be more effective (at least as shooter HS). I mean, that’s just why I’m playing that build, to do that. I also have quite a lot of fun as melee. In fact, I’ve mainly been a melee-oriented player in every ‘tide game up until now. I really just loved the shooting gameplay as a change of pace. Like when a game adds a new character who bucks the trend for interest’s sake.

@Frish

Wait a second… doesn’t Slayer not even get a ranged weapon..?

He did not start out with one, but he did get access to the Throwing Axe eventually. Don’t take it too literally, tho, I was just making a point about class fantasy.

@alsozara

I actually just want to point out in VT2 you can build a very melee centric Bounty Hunter where you mostly melee but want to shoot every ten seconds to proc hunter and other buffs off your free shot passive.

Yeah, I played a lot of VT2. Bounty Hunter had its ups and downs, tho overall I did not enjoy ranged combat in that game much.

@SoSollEsSein

One mistake and you’re probably down. In general, the inherent risk in close combat is therefore significantly higher than in ranged combat.

Only if you hang back. The only time you have safety and freedom is with a very good team - in which case, isn’t that the point of team play?

Using ranged at close range is where it’s at, and where you’ll often be in high difficulty. A group of Crushers come at you, unless your team comes and takes them out you’ll be dodging like hell at close range and slowly whittling them down with gunfire. Or, ofc, you can switch to melee and kill them extremely easily with something like the Dual Shivs. XD Those things absolutely break the class, especially with the absurd toxin damage.

The only one of HS’s weapon options that fit into the Desperado playstyle are good beyond close range is the IAG.

[SoSollEsSein]

@BizarreSalp

Using ranged at close range is where it’s at, and where you’ll often be in high difficulty. A group of Crushers come at you, unless your team comes and takes them out you’ll be dodging like hell at close range and slowly whittling them down with gunfire.

This thread is about the HS. “slowly whittling them down with gunfire” is definitely not what I witness when I have a HS in my run… and this thread is about the unlimited ammo for HS because of the pickpocket. There is no reason for that!

[Rickenbacker]

Melee centric up to now? Where all the time the main threat were ranged enemies and walls of armor XDD You should raise difficulty from malice so may be your "melee dry gameplay” would be improved I dunno by a quantity of mobs xDD

Btw I dont have a problem with melee kills even playing with 3 ranged players, so skill issue for sure. Could just say that you cant hit even in point black so mindless swinging is the only chance to get a kill for you
PS: Bragging about kick just proves that the main cryer in every team is just you are and Im not surprised