Fatshark, fix the class fantasy of Gun Scum

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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Gun scum needed adjusting, but the class fantasy of being able to be the “pure shooting class” was actually novel and fun. It was a nice change of pace for me, and I think a lot of others. While some players insist that they do not want others to be able to play what they want, they don’t have to play it.

But since you can only get ammo back in melee, the class is extremely clunky to play; building your gun scum leads to the class being extremely poor in melee, and your team mates who are melee specialists WILL exterminate every viable target, often while you’re trying to slap it to death. It’s incredibly annoying how much time I’m spending trying to hunt down and kill a SINGLE Elite/Special before the team kills it - and even then to only get back enough ammo to shoot for a few seconds.

At the same time, Rampage and Chem scum can still abuse the talent to be able to put extremely high DPS on every single target in the game, regardless of armor type, with Needle Gun.

I suggest that Pickpocket be moved to a sub-node of Desperado, so that getting it requires one to be specced into ranged combat. I would further recommend that it be altered so that the enemy must be killed at close range (not simply melee), forcing the player to be nearer to enemies. Finally, instead of instantly refilling the pockets, cause the enemies to drop a pickup that only the Scum can see that must be collected by walking over (that will still only refill ammo to 20% of max).

In this way, the Gun Scum must still play close to enemies to maintain ammo, putting them more in danger. It also means that heavy enemies can pressure them away from ammo drops, properly walling the class off.

On top of this, I would recommend some nerfs;

The +50% dodge distance node is insanely strong. And I mean insane; I never, never feel danger in melee even if I have no ammo, because the dodges are so absurdly good. Gun Scum should not be that safe. They should have to play around the edges of enemies and have good positioning.

Second, revert the ammo increase on Boom Bringer. It’s a very strong tool, but with four charges it is too strong.

If Gun Scum is still too strong after these changes, then there are options to cause the Pickpocket node to give some downsides, such as decreasing damage or cleave. In this way, players can choose to play an “honest” Gun Scum with full damage, or one using inferior ammo they pick up along the way, giving them infinite ammo but reduced DPS at any given moment.

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Actually, fixing Pickpocket is easy—just move it under the ranged keystone. Then take the old “ranged kills return ammo” effect and put it on the ranged keystone instead. That way, Pickpocket won’t get abused by both melee and ranged builds anymore. I’m pretty sure ranged Scav players would be totally fine with that.

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Ranged Hive Scum when they have to actually engage with the core Darktide experience:

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That’s barely a buff in exchange for a lot of nerfs. Sounds like something fatshark would do.

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Literally the opposite of the truth, by the way.

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I feel like having to melee for ammo isn’t a big ask, but I also don’t like any kind of kill-stealing because it just feels bad and I’d rather not compete with my own team mates. I would definitely like to see the activation criteria finessed a bit – whether it’s ammo drops (not like rations, i.e. button press to pick up) or maybe gunner enemies drop loot for you. Elites feels a little too restrictive and arbitrary – Ragers give you bullets?

I also wonder what loadout you are using that feels weak on Scum, all of their special melee weapons have great single-target options. If you are speccing for the odd Elite kill I’m sure you could make a weapon that excels at that – Bone Saw with Limbsplitter for instance.

I think this would help a lot, and allow for some meaningful balancing. I wish FS hadn’t removed the Rampage debuff, so the class could have some more push/pull. You get mega melee monkey-mode BUT you get all tuckered out after… You get tons of ammo BUT ____…

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Trade melee mini-game for easter egg hunt mini-game and frame it as a “buff”:

Proposes a lot of nerfs in exchange:

and suggest further nerfs in the end:

And this is literally something fatshark has done in the past too, disruptive nerfs along with meaningless buffs.

Explain to me, how this is not the truth, not everyone is enlightened as you guys are here. You can’t just parachute in a thread and claim “wrong opinion” without elaborating.

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Maybe the better way to fix it is to make it reward ammo on a number of of ranged weakspot kills. Lower for regular filler enemies, more for elites or specials. Maybe depending on how strong it ends up, add a distance condition or a timer on how often it can proc to reward more precision.

Forcing melee is doable but rather clunky and I do not see anything wrong with the game having a way to play mostly ranged, it isn’t Vermintide 2, it’s its own game.

This would make it possible but more difficult for the needle gun to get it, would make it a bit harder for the Autopistols due to the accuracy and reasonable easy for the Shotpistols, which also currently seem to be seen as the weaker Hive Scum specific ranged weapon.

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Nerf Cultists when someone asks for a buff:

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Get some new material. :joy:

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some people care about the health of the game and want it to be balanced and fun for everyone

but no i think we should buff players more, give all players 30 more skill points. lets increase the amount of crushers and specials that are allowed to spawn to counteract that. oh and lets double or maybe we should triple the hp of crushers, 6500 hp on auric isnt enough, fatshark better make them have 10000 hp or maybe even closer to 15000. all classes should have access to infinite ammo and also shouldnt have to reload, so to counteract that fatshark needs to turn up horde spawns, make it so thats theres at least 200+ enemies on screen at once at all times, i want the console version of darktide to be literally unplayable from the amount of enemies causing fps drops and lag. the game should spawn waves of 10+ trappers and bursters at the same time to try and stop us

oh and all the other classes should get ogryns dodge dr, and his base hp. all classes also should be able to sprint and push infinitely, running out of stamina sucks so that shouldnt be a thing anymore, increase dodge linger to 1.5 seconds on all classes and change every ability to be an instant kill all enemies spawned into the level button

asking for/and receiving buffs over and over just makes the game easier and boring the more it continues to happen.

Imagine for a moment: a group of 3 crushers, 2 bulwarks, a reaper, and 20 horde enemies turn the corner… what do you do? press 2 buttons and use the boombringer to instantly kill everything. alright alright thats fine. but now consider that a group of 150 crushers, 200 bulwarks, 75 reapers, and 10,000 horde enemies turn the corner… what do you do? also press 2 buttons and use the boombringer to instantly kill them all? interesting.

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But GODS FORBID that Fatshark decides to do any necessary downward adjustments.

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The problem is they either don’t do enough all at once, or just dance around the issue. Right now the game has its own meta, for a reason. There’s enemy spam, like or dislike it doesn’t matter, you have to deal with it somehow and with other mechanics.

They nerf stuff that works well for a reason, players get disappointed and nothing really actually changes. When will enemies get adjusted too? Boom bringer or the chem nade are good for a specific reason. If the enemy consisted of a bunch of individually strong entities, something more than a Mauler that we know the attack patterns of by now, then I’d have a reason to actually make use of the stun grenades more often, to get an upper hand over than individual opponent.

But as it is, it’s mostly about the tides of enemies, not their individual danger. I do not dislike this actually like i used to, I see the charm, but I recognise the engine is reaching its limits too. But as it stands this is our current game.

I think people would be less likely to see nerfs negatively if they made sense overall, and weren’t just happening in a vacuum.

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You post this nonsense, even though the opening post admits things like dodge node and boom bringer are too strong, and lays out their problem with pickpocket nerf respectfully?

Nowhere does this post feel like crying or a tantrum.

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Anything that isn’t strictly limited to nerf-calling ends up being labeled as a tantrum, lies, rage bait, unserious, a joke, or mere memery, among other things. I wish I were exaggerating, though they make the point clearer with every response.

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Me when I lie to generalise the opinions of others. You literally call ANYONE who disagrees with you a “nerf cultist”! You’re completely and utterly oblivious to your own RAW, UNREFINED HYPOCRISY.

I’ve asked for plenty of buffs as well as nerfs and ACTIVELY agree when others suggest either of them as long as they’re within reason. But it’s easier to just strawman people who possess the necessary foresight to recognise that downward adjustments are necessary for Darktide’s health as being unreasonable “fun-haters” and “nerf cultists”, isn’t it?

I’m just vehemently opposed to any buffs that would only serve to further desecrate the fundamental building blocks of Darktide, ESPECIALLY if the game already once had such a desecration in place. I don’t want this game to go one step forward, two steps back anymore.

People are overreacting SO hard to this specific nerf to a point of hilarity. Oh, boohoo, I have to Melee an Elite/Specialist Enemy every once in a while, in order to get LITERAL INFINITE AMMO! You mean there’s a dynamic playstyle in my dynamic playstyles game? Oh, boohoo.

If people want to use only their Ranged Weapon, this isn’t a game that’s designed around that, plain and simple, and such an experience that we were subjected to prior to this specific nerf is not what I paid for. Sure, there aren’t enough 40K FPS games, I understand that, but y’all are wrong for trying to make it DARKTIDE’S problem.

Fatshark clearly seems to agree for the time being, as there are standards to be upheld.

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I do not think we can say Fatshark agrees entirely because they did come up with the playstyle to begin with. My problem personally is more with it asking you to get the ammo in a way that’s clunky for a ranged build. It’s not fun, doable, but just not that fun. I am not asking to literally have bags of ammo materialize in the little clothing my Hive Scum wears, just make it reward shooting skill instead, make it require some effort, which reduces the full application of the DPS the class has, but in way that actually feels “in-character”.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say the game wasn’t designed around it before Hive Scum either, both Veteran and Ogryn had ways, even if underbaked, to focus primarily on ranged combat. So there was an effort from Fatshark to actually make it more meaningful. Sure you can argue they’re not 100% ranged, but that’s mostly just details.

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It’s a problem, because Fatshark were the ones designing the previous iteration of it and selling the class as is for months before eventually changing it. People are wrong for Fatshark’s rug pull and certain people thinking full ranged builds have no place in the game at all, despite Fatshark themselves bringing them to the game in some form again and again? Interesting.

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I agree, remove Pickpocket from the game, and reduce Boom Bringer ammo count to 1. Very good suggestions. :joy:

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you swing your melee ~2 times

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