Heretical opinion: Replace all level 25 CDR talents with something else

There, I said it. It would make balancing the cooldown in general alot easier, since CDR is usually the choice to go. I have to say that on Pyro’s active (and to a similar degree: WS’s), the choice isn’t now as obvious as it was before, but I still think that if you “know what you’re doing”, both the temp health and the venting option are not really necessary.
Unchained is probably the most obvious, since your carreer skill is what is keeping you alive, you want it up as soon as possible after using it since if you don’t have it up and something happens, you gon da bruh! The two other options might as well not even exist (ignoring the fact that the damage bonus is just laughably low. Make it like +200% more damage, but that’s another story.)
Shade, same thing. Your active ability is what gives you your “oomph”. The other too options don’t directly increase your damage dealing potential, so they are out the window.
Merc Kruber, quite similar. You sometimes see people use the pick-up variety (which can come in handy sometimes, but is usually regarded as a “noob pick”), but the more temp health thing is a) unnecessary if you use your active ability as often as you can and b) deprives you of the use of the shout as often since this is what makes Morale Boost so powerful, it’s your get out of jail free card. Having it up more often makes it more reliable so it is there when you need it.
Same Story with WHC.

On the other hand, there’s skills where the CDR isn’t at all necessary because cooldown is so short anyway and the other options are just too good. HM being an obvious candidate, but also FK, where the pocket-25% more power are usually too good to pass on (but CDR is the next best choice. The infinite block stamina thing is neat in theory, but given how incredibly focused on offense the game is, it is a very questionable choice).

I am not exactly saying that CDR is the devil incarnate and I am more than happy to keep using it. I am also aware that balancing the utility of the level 25 talents is hard, no matter if there’s CDR talents or not.
My point is that it would probably make overall balancing a little easier, since you don’t have to consider if there’s a way to hugely reduce the cooldown. Everything would be more on an even playing field. You could then even consider slightly reducing some carreer skill cooldowns (slightly!). Things like RC, RS (well… not really, but you get the idea :wink: ) and the 10% CDR you get through the trinket (which might even be boostet do like 15%) would suddenly become a more valid consideration over the almost obligatory Curse Resistance / Crit Chance.
Finally, it would make room fore some awesome new ideas for carreer skills that give use another interesting option for using it. Wouldn’t it be cool if FK got the option of gaining temp health for every enemey he charged through? Or if Mercs Morale boost also triggered his paced strikes for everyone? Or if WHC’s ability also hugely boosted crit power and headshot damage, or maybe even made everyone have inifinite ammo for the 6 seconds his ability lasts? Not saying I want any of these replace the CDR stuff, but just give an example what interesting ideas could be realized instead of the rather boring and blunt CDR.

Discuss! :slight_smile:


In general I agree. 30% CD reduction is a boring talent choice and on certain classes mandatory.

Shade, mandatory.
Unchained, mandatory. (Also because the other choices are bad and deliver near to nothing)
WHC, almost mandatory. It’s the strongest pick.
Same with mercenary. Arguably same with zealot.

Oh and just to point it out. You get more total temp hp from increased temp hp on mercenary instead of CD. But you sacrifice the stagger and amount of times you can use it. It’s not a big difference. But might aswell point it out. It’s all down to what you prefer. More use = more stagger & more consistent or More temp hp overall.
But yeah, I agree. 30% reduction talent is just a boring option and I’d prefer if they changed it to something else.


Yes, I should have pointed that out, so thanks for doing it. It’s kinda the same with WHC and his time increase. You get more time, but less uses.

I don’t think the situation is quite as bad as you seem to make it, and I don’t think CDR Talent should necessarily be removed from everyone, but I do agree with the general idea. I consider CDR to be (on most Careers) the “boring but practical” choice (I’ll refrain from tossing in a TVTropes link here).

On some Careers it works well, coming down to what you want to do with the Skill: On Merc, whether you want to do more control, THP or a panic button; on WS, whether you want Special dispatch, survivability or ammo. But as you said, on other Careers it’s a near-mandatory choice and on at least one it’s near-useless (though I still use it on one one of my HM builds, just because Bladedancer still doesn’t seem to work).

I think a few Careers’ (such as Shade’s) case could be fixed with a slight reduction on its effectiveness, on account of a powerful Skill and an already short cooldown. But on others, it could indeed be gotten rid of unless something drastically changes about the options, and on Handmaiden it really needs to be replaced with something useful. And yet, on at least Unchained, I don’t think removing the CDR would solve the underlying problem: The other options are underwhelming at best.


Oh, that was not my intention at all! But if it comes across like that, I apologize, I should have made that more clear! I am not at all against having the CDR talent, I don’t mind keep using it :smiley:

Yes, I agree! I think the skill’s cooldown should be slightly reduced so that the CDR isn’t as mandatory. The other two options do need an improvemend anyhow, no arguing about that :slight_smile:

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Heh, no need to apologize. There is often enough need for a little exaggeration in these conversations, and I did figure out that’s what you did, hence the “seem to”. But not everyone notices every nuance (and no, I don’t either, often enough).


I believe CDR has its place.
I just think it shouldn’t have that many places.
As in, it’s everywhere.
And it doesn’t need to be. It isn’t on slayer, because he has a level 15 that allows him to actively reduce his cooldown.
It wouldn’t need to be on BW, because her double activation does nearly the same, and is frequently more useful, what with how unreliable her ability is.
We also need to think about how beneficial we want a level 25 to be.
On bountyhunter, 2 of three skills just change the focus of said skill - remove one half, double the other.
Meanwhile CDR just allows using it more often, which is clearly better than not.
On this skill it can work because the two halves work versus different enemies, and having two half dead threats doesn’t do anyone much good, but it’s not quite the only example.

Take Unchained for the example.
30% CDR, 50% more DMG, 50% more AOE.
Now, Increased DMG is useless. The skill does so little DMG it hardly even kills slaverats. A increase on that DMG does near to nothing.
Increased AOE is not to shabby. It gives you slightly more control at the prize of general safety due to how Unchained works.
So I near all cases a 30% CDR is the best option for Unchained since it provides a pure “I’m not going to blow up” safety button.
I feel the same is applicable to some of the other classes aswell.
The thing with 30% CDR is that it’s a safe 100% talent. It just works all the time. Unlike something like 25% increased power after a charge on Foot Knight that had a limited use.
So personally I’d prefer to see them gone.

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Not wanting to turn this into an Unchained-Skill buff thread, but in general, things that increase duration, damage or ranged on these AoE skills should kinda be fused together. Buff the damage on her active ability AND increase the radius and suddenly it becomes a very good choice. Same with WHC: Combine the duration buff AND the AoE buff and suddenly it’s a better choice. It would also free up yet another slot on level 25 to give us yet another option.

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I agree it would make things much more exciting. Actually I would prefer for the 25 Talent to bring additional flavour into the mix rather than just passive buffs. And I actually think that f.e. the Kruber pick-up Talent is a good example of how to do those talents right. I disagree that it’s a noob-pick- I Main Kruber and I use it quite regularly because I think it’s quite fun and can change up you playstyle in quite interesting ways.

In general I would love to see more stuff like that where you have real choices to make instead of just calculations. Give WHC an option to just get infinite ammo during ult or give shade the option to trade the one hit kill to just being able to run arround stealthed and attack with just a slight damage boost. Or even just mix in some more party heals f.e. allies gain a bit of temp health when inside RV’s smoke bomb. I know it would make balancing a nightmare but a bit more flavour for those talents would really increase longevity

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To make something happen, you need to do stuff, which fatshark kinda refuse to fulfill

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