I love how everyone is just immediately resorting to ad hominems because they disagree with me and can’t defend their opinions well 
Like… at least try? 
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No ad homs from me.
The helbores are such unique weapons. While I’m not 100% against buffs I would never want them to be made more like other guns.
Ofc they feel bad if you try to use them like some other gun. Go use that other gun instead? I absolutely hated them at first but once I dropped my assumptions about how it was supposed to work and actually learned its ways I appreciated the design.
Yes plasma can do some things better but the plasma is better than a lot of weapons, see any buff/nerf discussion.
The bayonets on the (old) Mk I and II are fast and damaging enough to be fully viable as melee weapons, albeit lacking blocks. The helbore does not have to keep you out of melee. It’s a true hybrid. I admit that the Mk III slash is so janky you might never believe it if you’ve used that one.
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There wasn’t a single ad hominem in my post aimed at you to be clear. You made a suggestion for a moderate change. I don’t agree it’s necessary but it’s sensible enough and would be acceptable.
The exhaustion and attack on credibility were all levied squarely at OP. Why would I waste time defending my opinion when what I’m arguing against (OP’s post) is just that it doesn’t feel as good to them as other guns because it doesn’t body shot a poxwalker uncharged???
It would be more damaging to my credibility to engage with that level of absurdity in the first place.
Edit: Here’s a thread where productive conversation is happening about hellbore, I even suggest some light buffs I would like over there. The difference is it was started in good faith by someone who actually uses and has a good understanding of the weapon to begin with. There’s some good info and discussion happening there I recommend it to anyone who is actually invested in the weapon and not just complaining about nonsense:
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Rifles doing less damage than one hand revolvers 
The advantages of revolvers, laspistols, shredders pistol should be FAST wield speed and reload speed.
Disadvantage should be damage and HUGE damage dropoff (~ 20 meters should be the pistol area)
AND all one handed ranged weapon special attacks should be a swing with your equipped one handed melee weapon (straight up copy Light/heavy chains - if this is meh to code, then just take the 1st attack of the chains)
Rifles should be reverse - so wield speed and reload stats and talents would actually do something here. But they absolutely should oneshot-headshot every elite and special outside of mutie and ogryns.
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Cleave should be the same. There should be a falloff past the 12.5 meters that they defined as close range (i would still prefer the 8 meters of before). But still, this weapon should cleave. But not a so efficient cleave at any distance.
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IIRC, headhunters’ and hellbores’ have hard time getting headshots, because od piercing, or rather lack of it.
When shoot with piercing hits, from revoler for example, it scans entire line, and register as headshoot if this line intersects with head at any point, thus makes it easier.
When shoot without piercing hits, from headhunter, scan line ends at the first intersection of enemy hitbox, so some random flailling hand or slightly higher shoulder can deny headshot, even it looked like one.
Kinda ironic, that headhunters are not that great in hunting heads.
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There’s so many things that are ironic in this game.
But maybe that’s the reason of the name change. Cause they were bad at hunting heads?
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For a while, the old Vraks MKIII was seen on the forums to be a good weapon. I’ve never liked its burst fire personally; I can’t see why I’d want 3 bullets in different locations on a target.
I did try Orome’s helbore build, and that was fun. I don’t think I like the mechanic enough to want to learn it well enough to use in high level games; I certainly haven’t got the confidence to take on a horde with the bayonet. But; 600k damage isn’t to be sniffed at, so it’s obviously got the ability.
I think maybe the OP’s take is better interpreted as the weapon having a high skill ceiling. With so many weapons that are easily accessible across a broad range of ability, some weapons do stand out as being tougher to master. Probably why the Columnus V IAG (now called ‘vraks V’) is such a staple.
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I dont think
At first, onslaught on veteran explains a lot why you should go for graia brauto or IAG columnus.
But even on a zealot… graia and columnus have better sprint values. And also faster you fire, faster you get critics.
Really good on a psyker to quell peril faster.
And also, the iag agri is pretty bad. The graia is not really better for damages than the columnus.
I really think that both should be buffed (except if they finally nerf PG/revolver etc. but if not, definitively they have to be buffed and not the columnus nerfed.)
I completely agree with the OP on this. And strangely, they are two gun types I’d have loved to have used more often, especially the Helbore.
I hope it isn’t too difficult for Fatshark to find a solution for them.
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Personally I was a big fan of the burst fire variant until they nerfed the finesse modifier by 75% in patch 14 I believe. Just hasn’t been the same since.
ALSO WHY DOES THE PRECISION WEAPON TYPE DEAL LESS DAMAGE TO MANIACS?
I’m not sure where you got this but the IaG Agri is perfectly fine imo. Just not the insane dps the Vraks or whatever tf its called has. It is perfectly usable at both specialist and rager/shotgunner culling.
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The columnus is balanced considering all OP weapons that are kept like that.
Then the Agri is under Columnus. Like the Graia is also.
Both need to be buffed (agri and graia).
(and no I wont use the new name… I don’t know them and I have clearly no intention to learn them - Also my game now display the old names so all is fine for me…)
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All you’re showing me here is a good player working twice as hard to carry mediocre players with a mediocre weapon, and getting outplayed by a random psyker with a default name, probably because you are using a mediocre weapon
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Psykers do insane damages…
And the damages can be explained… the default scoreboard lack a lot of informations to be able to judge how things have gone.
An example, we don’t know if someone has died or has just been downed.
One of my issues with these guns is how long they take to reload compared to the Infantry or Recon guns. And their magazine size is far from large… Feels like I’m spending half the game reloading.
Bruh, just because you don’t like my point that the hellbore can’t keep up with the entire gun roster of the game does not make my argument bad faith. That your response is to immediately insult me and write paragraphs of seethe… are you sure I’m the one arguing in bad faith? Maybe you should go back an reread your own posts before making such claims.
If you won’t be civil, neither will I.
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Not quite my point, but yeah, hellbore does have a higher skill ceiling than most other weapons in the game.
My point is more that, assuming same level of skill and competence per weapon, a player will always do more damage, kill more enemies of all types, and win more engagements by choosing nearly any other ranged weapon in the game.
Yes, you can kill a scab gunner at 30m with a single charged headshot, every 2 or 3 seconds depending on mark, but at higher difficulties, when do you see only one? When do you even engage at 30m outside of the hab bridge or consignment yard? What do you do when the loner zealot has ran ahead and used shroudfield to push all the agro to you, while the ogryn is lumbering after plasteel and ammo cans to feed rippy, and the psyker blew themselves up? The hellbore is a very competent marksmans weapon that would be great in most other shooters, but this is a horde shooter that wants to overwhelm you with numbers. We’re rejects, we don’t have the entire Cadian in a trench with us. We’re getting down and dirty with heretics. Hellbore just cannot keep up with the other weapons in the game, and the demands of the game itself.
I appreciate that its the choice of a lot of skilled players because of its high skill ceiling, but its output is consistently behind other weapons in the game, regardless of skill.
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I personally think the problem with the helbore is that between the long equipping time, the long charge, having a short time frame to shoot it, and the absolute need to aim downsights for actual precision, makes it so that whatever thing you wanted to kill, will be killed by someone else first and that feels awful.
It works so bad that I only find worth it the blue one with the blessing to reduce the charge.
If your team is ass or doesn’t have another precision shooter, then you’ll be a king, Helbores are very versatile.
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I am extremely exhausted of buff crazy people trying to turn every strong but nuanced gun into plasma. Regardless I will try to be less hostile.
You can’t honestly believe hellbore is worse than infantry las though right? This is my issue, I don’t really see any points here, just a lot of categorical statements that are highly dubious.
Like come on how is this not cope? They show you they can top damage with it, you have no idea how much effort they put in or how good the other players were, just a heap of assumptions to justify disregarding a different experience to yours.
And this is the other thing that is very off to me about this thread. Even 2000+ hour players with good mentality are excited to explore options they might have overlooked, you haven’t even asked any of the people defending it how they build it or what they like about it over other options. It’s just “nah it’s bad”.
Your issue seems to be that you can do more overall damage with other guns but that’s an incredibly shallow lens to view this through. All damage dealt if not equal. 1000 damage dealt to poxwalkers is not as valuable as 1000 damage dealt to disablers or elites. Hellbore kills every armour type very efficiently with little build support needed and excellent ammo efficiency. Clearly people can use it and be effective with it in top difficulty, killing a lot of the biggest run killers on their own while the kickback Ogryn farms hordes for more “muh total damage”.
So if it performs fine, people can use it to great success on top difficulty, then you simply want a buff because there are weapons that are stronger and easier. And that’s true, there are, but what you’re asking for is a steady march to turn the game into a complete bore. Hellbore doesn’t need to be plasma or revolver or CIAG, it’s competent, unique, and fun, and vastly more interesting to play than any of those meta options.
Leave it the hell alone power gamers.
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I’d love to agree, if not for a bayonet thingy on hellbore. Why the hell Hellbore MK3 (slowest one), has super bad melee atack, while other 2 have it usable?
This melee would be extra usable on slow charginf weapon.
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