Havoc - Here we go again. Darktide, the game which just doesn't want to be played

I will attempt to keep it civil, so if someone feels like ranting, please do the same.

Havoc for me is another case of Darktide game system which turns Darktide in a game which just doesn’t want to be played.

I would imagine Havoc is an attempt at improving long term player retention, encourage cooperation and keeping long-term players engaged and playing. For me it fails on all counts.

Gamekeeping:
The ranking system is unnecessarily restrictive and wastes players time. It prevents players from accessing the “good stuff” unless they spend time grinding or grinding back the ranks in game modes they do not want to play. Add to that the counterproductive game mechanics which increase player Havoc rank only if they are the host. I don’t care if my rank will increase next week, I want it now if this is what it takes for me to play something closer I actually want to play. What if the host we played with is not available on the given day or week and we want to continue playing at the given difficulty level? Start respecting our time and money Fatshark and give them what they want, they are customers.

No one cares about ranks. Everyone cares about ability to quickly customise difficulty for a given map. Stop adding silly, restrictive FOMO mechanics: “Oh, no, if you don’t play often enough you lose your rank”. This is third reason I believe you never learnt to respect your playerbase time and by extension their money.

Hello RNG, my old friend:
Now for the elephant in the room. Havoc randomness and lack of player agency in the process of selecting the map, difficulty and difficulty modifiers. I really, really don’t want to write another wall of text on this subject, so shortly.

Fatshark, you were wrong on RNG in itemisation, and it took 2 years to fix that. You are wrong to remove player agency from mission customisation as we had it in Vermintide 2. If anything that player agency should have been expanded on with new modifiers, any “one use only” deed restrictions removed and streamlined to allow for quickplay with randoms who want a challenge. Why? Because you have no idea what makes Tide games difficult.

Havoc difficulty scaling:
Multiple of your difficulty modifiers are not difficult, they are tedious and predicable. Think static specials waves (hounds, mutants, bursters). Others like the whole artificially lowered toughness and ranged unit spam turn the game yet again into a cover shooter, and encourage very narrow class builds. I had multiple cases I got shot from angles I was not watching. At full HP and toughness, I ended up with 20% HP by the time I pressed the dodge button. My reactions aren’t Counter Strike pro-gamer level, but they aren’t terrible. Also not to mention limitations of the game, from visibility to mobs tracking you through walls and shooting through pitch black darkness. Good luck in certain event arenas, you will need it, unless you run a couple really specific builds. Yay, for build variety in gameplay, I suppose?

We are back to cover shooter with no cover mechanics, and abusing dumb AI by pulling ranged mobs from new rooms, and breaking the line of sight “meta”. How is that remotely fun or anything to do with Tide games? Why have you changed multiple values which affect range gameplay balance at the same time? This sounds a bit like a rookie mistake to me when adjusting any complex system?

The No Party Finder:
The party finder system no one asked for is not fit for purpose. Unless we have a full pre-made we end up playing with bots. Friends who want to join us mid Havoc mission cannot join us. I would imagine due to bugs (fixable), and artificial system restrictions (not fixable). Let us play the game the way we want, and not waste time fighting with pointless restrictive bloat.

What Havoc should have been:
Simplicity, streamlined experience, and player agency.

Havoc should have been a new mission select screen with player agency built into it. Where you simply select a map, tick tickboxes next to a long list of different difficulty modifiers (you have a decent idea with Deeds, except them being one use only by design: Heroic Deeds - Vermintide 2 Wiki) which add a difficulty weight value (+1, +5 etc.) and press gather a party.

THEN assuming the party is not a full, a random player should be able to join that game from the Havoc mission screen just by clicking Quickplay. How? By clicking on a Havoc QUICKPLAY button with customisable by the PLAYER preferred difficulty weight value. if their preferred difficulty fits somewhere on that specific custom game settings, they are queued for that mission.

You can add all the fluff around this to your heart content. No silly rank restrictions, or expansive party finders required. No restrictions on friends joining existing games.

Post Scriptum
We had the initially itemisation fiasco, and we are still suffering from the randomised mission selection screen. Then there is the whole communist cosplay cosmetic shop experience, with cosmetic rotations, FOMO bs, and in-game currency. Could you listen to your customers about what they like about your products instead of making a game they don’t want to play?

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Where playtesters?

It can’t be that hard to see this massive problem in just getting into the new mode(partyfinder).

Playtesters don’t mean jack if the people in charge are arrogant enough to ignore feedback.

This is the company that responded to an enormously unpopular DLC (one that as I recall had a system pretty much like Havoc) with ‘we give people what they need, not what they want’.

These same people are clearly the ones who designed Havoc.

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Testers dont make design decisions.

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Well they should all tell fatshark that’s wrong and get blacklisted, so there’s a slight chance fatshark sees that as a real problem.

Modern game dev philosophy it seems. “I hear our long term customers like V8 engine powered sport cars, so we have switched to making electric bicycles. What do you mean our sales are down and no one buys our products anymore?”

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THEN assuming the party is not a full, a random player should be able to join that game from the Havoc mission screen just by clicking Quickplay. How? By clicking on a Havoc QUICKPLAY button with customisable by the PLAYER preferred difficulty weight value. if their preferred difficulty fits somewhere on that specific custom game settings, they are queued for that mission.

I couldn’t agree more, it’s too difficult to form a team.

The only good thing about all this is the novel experience of having some new modifiers for a bit. Thats all I’ve got from Havoc.

Coulda just played them in Maelstrom, but here we are.

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At the highest level of play, a group of players will have 4x the amount of control over which missions to play than they do now (a single Auric Maelstrom, unless you use MMT). A group of 4 would have 4 different level 40 missions, each of which would get re-rolled immediately upon beating it.

That’s not perfect agency, but it’s an improvement. And I really don’t think we’re going to see 100% control over missions/modifiers, ultimately I imagine because of a server/service architecture decision. Based on a cursory glance, the havoc servers seem to be the same as the normal game servers, which I think likely reinforces that supposition.

If anything, I reckon we’ll probably get self-hosted servers before we get 100% control over mission selection.

On another topic: right now, the Party Finder/lobby browser is working just fine for me as a quickplay tool. I’m not sweating the difficulty at the moment and just working towards penances (which I imagine many many players will do). I just throw out a bunch of requests and accept the first one I get invited it.

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I seriously hope they dont spend another 2 years fixing an RNG system

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Haha, jokes on you, it will take 4 years

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The game mode was released yesterday and it already takes 15 to 20 minutes to find a single team

They finally decide to make a mode that doesn’t force you to backfill and still manage to f it up entirely, dividing the playerbase through 40 different brackets

Havoc is dead on arrival

I don’t know whether i should laugh or cry

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Havoc can only be played seriously by forming a strike team through the official Discord, which I did today and we got to rank 27 before we all called it a night (I’m typing this on my phone).

The reason the in-game party finder does not work for Havoc is the same as it does not work for Twins HM: there is too large a skill disparity in the playerbase, and once you have a good team, you want to keep going and push as far as you have time to play.

What struck me as hilarious was that it seem that a large percentage of people disliked Havoc, but were only pushing to 40 for the reward so they wouldn’t have to do play Havoc anymore.

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I really hope the devs don’t get high on copaine listening to people like you who think everything is fine because the mode was supposedly designed around 0.01% of the playerbase who’s using Discord

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That is not what I said at all.

Did you even read my reply?

I have nothing but bad opinions about the current implementation of Havoc.

If you’ve read any of my previous posts regarding the mode, you’ll know that I think that Havoc is severly undercooked.

I’m just saying that playing it with randos instead of a premade is difficult because Darktide lacks a method to group equivalent skilled people together, which usually don’t matter, but specifically Havoc’s rating climving system essentially wants to enforce that without Fathark putting in fleshed-out systems.

The rating system and it being a weekly thing unless you host (which most couldn’t because of the error) is currently gating players from being invited to games at the rank they actually currently are at.

The party finder is terribel and HM Twins had the exact same problem as Havoc.

Twins was easy to run with a Discord premade that were equally skilled, but it was frustrating with randos.

It’s not the playerbases’ fault.

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Fatshark ignoring feedback, continuing straight on its blind tracks and repeating the same mistakes… wonder why I’m not surprised

Two years spent fixing the crafting system, when all they had to do was listen to the feedback from Vermintide, and now this… weaves with the exact same old flaws

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Typically it’s you - community manager/pr people - devs

You should blame the middleman.

I didn’t like weaves because the timer sucked, the levels sucked, the fixed spawns sucked, the leaderboard was completely irrelevant to me, restarting progression sucked, seasonal resets sucked (dunno if this is still a thing?), and the cost to even play it sucked.

So far, I’m really enjoying Havoc. I like the variability of enemy health, I like having to be more aware of positioning, I like how gunners are scary again, I like how I’m getting solid groups that are staying together for multiple matches. In short, I like how it’s different and fresh from the main game, but still the same loop and not a completely different (sub-par) thing, like Weaves was.

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Absolutely, I tend to be overly critical about things I like, so lets say it here for posterity :wink: I really like some of those new difficulty modifiers which make enemies more difficult to kill, force you to move, make you consider different builds than the old comfortable “meta”.

The only one modifier I’m not so sure about is the combination of all those ranged enemies buffs. Atm few trash shooters can focus you out of nowhere and you go down from 100 to 0 in a fraction of a second. We have been here before. With enemies dropping from levels above, teleporting through doors or cheekily spawning “around a corner” from you, that leads some random difficulty spikes. This really changes the flow of combat, and we are back to playing corners and abusing the dumb AI by baiting shooters into already cleared areas. I see the potential here for Exec stance vets, and support zealots/psykers also, just not sure if making us respect shooters more means they should melt you so quickly. Some events areas like the first Mercantile event are also unsufferable without really specific set ups, as the AI director spams shooters and elites shooters like crazy there.

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I wouldn’t mind even financing the mission with my own Ordo.