Havoc: Crafting 2.0, or "How to build a something nobody asked for, and then completely whiff why people don't like it"

So, I’m going to start this off by clearly stating: I am not a Havoc player. As is, the current mode has 0 interest to me. From all appearances, most of the playerbase has either not run Havoc, or have only dipped their toes in. Of the players who do run Havoc, most appear to have run it just long enough to get their cosmetics and titles and then dipped out even if they’re skilled and capable enough to routinely handle the hardest the game can throw at them. There doesn’t appear to be sustained interest in routinely playing Havoc outside of a tiny handful of gigasweats.

Why might this be?

From my perspective, Havoc feels like it was developed to meet an internal or imagined requirement, not something that was really developed as a response to market/user demand.

There are several fundamental issues, to my eyes, that keep people from playing or replaying:

1: The requirement to use the Party Finder feels arbitrary and forced. It’s a huge barrier to play and an unnecessary avenue for drama and toxicity with this mode. There isn’t really a reason to require this, it feels like a requirement to justify the Party Finder’s existence, which doesn’t seem to get much use otherwise. Creating features just to justify other features that people aren’t utilizing isn’t great game design.

2: The fact that you can lose ranks is a huge driver of toxicity. In a game where the developers chose not to implement a scoreboard out of concerns over toxicity, this feels like diametrically opposed design. I get Fatshark want’s something to keep playing weekly, a hook to maintain consistent play, but decaying ranks is bad anti-player game design in a coop PvE game that runs directly counter to many other design decisions.

3: The ranking system feels painfully overcomplex. Trying to figure out how it worked, what the changes are, and how it’ll work now just gave me an aneurysm trying to read all that, and I cannot fathom why it needs to be this complicated.

4: Incentives for Havoc are just…not great. Most people play just to get the titles and cosmetics, the resource rewards just aren’t relevant for players at that level. Once you get your titles and black outfit, if you’re not really into Havoc’s particular flavor of Sweatfest, there’s absolutely no incentive to keep going. Coupled with rank decay if you can’t play for a bit or wipe a few attempts, it tremendously discourages continued interaction with Havoc.

5: The game now has an absurd number of difficulty options, spreading the playerbase ever thinner over the existing content. With Sedition/Uprising/Malice/Heresy/Damnation, Auric and Maelstrom missions, and now dozens of levels of Havoc. Aside from some different enemy modifiers, fundamentally these are all the same game/maps/missions/weapons/etc. Making a gazillion different difficulty levels isn’t really adding a ton of content and value, especially for the bulk of the playerbase that’s sitting playing Malice and Heresy.

6: Havoc difficulty largely appears to be built around making things hit harder and take more hits to kill, and limiting ammunition. This is a very hamfisted way of increasing difficulty, that largely just reinforces the popularity of, or essentially mandates the use of, powerful metabuilds, resulting in the perception of an even more restrictive Meta (and associated player toxicity) than we see with the rest of the game.

All of this results in Havoc coming off as something designed in isolation by a dev group that has requirements to develop and launch something, but that don’t actually play the game or interact with their userbase. I’m not sure if it’s in service to some sort of nebulous upper management directive, or just slavish adherence to personal ideas, but Havoc in its current form just doesn’t feel like something the playerbase wanted.

So, when looking at the updates for Havoc, are any of these issues being addressed? Not really. Some minor QoL changes to rank stuff (that remains complex and convoluted) and some new mission modifiers don’t address any of these fundamental issues. It feels like the Dev’s response to much of the player angst around Havoc has been much like it was around Crafting for the first two years of this game, which was just making minor changes that don’t address the real core issues.

What are others thinking, do you see echos of the Crafting experience in the approach to Havoc? Are you liking Havoc as is? Do you see the upcoming Havoc changes as exciting or pointless?

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I normally don’t discuss gameplay/balance/requests on Darktide but the upcoming Havoc changes feel really out of tune and exacerbates the issues with the Grim Protocols update. As someone who enjoys playing havoc 40 along with Auric Maelstorm, my only complaint about Havoc was the surrounding systems that put stringent, or at least a different approach from the existing game modes of Darktide as has been since beta.

  1. As someone who only really plays on Sat/Sun mornings on EST - the additional step of trying to find people through party finder (which has been the vast majority of my experience on h40) really creates artificial difficulty in actually getting to play the game - in contrast with the quickplay option that was originally there. This initially gave me an MMO feel without the any good supporting systems to establish an entrenched social system that would alleviate finding people for these game modes - outside of the discord which I do partake rarely [but once again my usual game time form 0700 - 1200 EST does not help]

  2. The swapping out of the modifiers feels very ‘seasonal’ and just like the FOMO skin store - does not really give a good feel for player agency and along with how the mission board since inception of this game really adds up to the frustration. I feel like randomized missions should be an option, the current iteration of the mission board is not a deal breaker - and sometimes I enjoy quickplay for randomized missions, but the havoc mode [outside of the twins] is starting to exacerbate the initial issue

  3. Why is there a demotion for current assignments to 30 if you hit 40 for the new ‘season’? [If I’m understanding the blog correctly]. I am in the opinion that if you hit a clearance level - you should be able to select any clearance mission at or below, the demotion mechanic I feel adds on a ‘ladder’/‘season’ feel that this game does not need. The current demotion/limited availability of choice in Havoc and the current course of the new update seems nothing but restricting player choice and forcing them to through artificial timesinks, something akin to the old crafting systems.

I think these are my current major complaints and fears of the upcoming changes, while I have annoyances with the current havoc system - I think it is far better as it is now [modifiers not withstanding] in terms of system implementation.

I personally believe that the ogryn changes and perhaps maybe the new Sefoni mode should be included in Visions and Nightmares - and give more time to change Havoc into something that can be incorporated with better social systems surrounding it - as well as changing the current Havoc systems to be more player friendly.

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Yeah, you pretty much laid out all the issues I put in a response to the havoc update in announcements.

People have been saying things similar to this ever since Havoc came out, especially related to the rank decay, and did they at least remove that/otherwise make it better?

Nope, they made it infinitely worse! As now you have only 3 chances a week no matter what to get your 40 clear in, not up to 12 in a premade or infinite if you joined others games.

This is just anti player design the whole way down, on top of a system made as convoluted as possible that they didn’t even pretend to fix. The fact it’s so hard to host ones own mission in party finder (having to click all the way through the filter options before finally clicking ‘host my own’) and that wasn’t even the first thing addressed but instead, they are just like ‘actually, we need even MORE FOMO in this’ is like, just, so bad.

The game mode already is dead, ‘Sunday Resets’ already barely have people and I’m sure they are just made up of people like me who actually do enjoy the challenge of high havoc and are also going for the 20 weekly penance ‘just because’. But I think that’s like 5-6 weeks out for people now, and after this update, not even I will give an F about maintaining my 40, because it’s going to get knocked down to 30 for no reason and I won’t be able to play a 40 to get it back up again. I am forced to play a set number of games now (as you can’t jump levels now, you are only allowed X amount of upward progress regardless of the level you play) at a level I DON’T WANT TO PLAY before I can get back to the LEVEL I EARNED, and that is actual horse.

Basically, this game mode is dead, all the ‘sweats’ as you say (like myself to a degree, I just like actually being challenged in my video game from time to time) are going to be completely gone from this game mode in it’s entirely in a month and a half, leaving the only people left being people desperately trying to claw their way to the cosmetics with people that literally have no idea how to play the game and are just trying to get carried, thusly making the game mode even MORE of a ghost town as the experience becomes crappyer and crappyer and nobody gets to experience the high of completing a high end clear and feeling fantastic about it, and thus nobody ‘comes back’ as there’s literally no positive feelings happening toward the mode.

It’s just cheeks, they clearly have this whole mode being made as you say, ‘to appease company higher ups’ and nothing more. There’s no real other reason why the Ogryn Update + Safoni is like this fantastic ‘we listened’ post of incredible proportions, and then Havoc is literally ‘we ignored you completely and gave you nothing’. This is what the execs think this game needs, so unfortunately this actually pretty decent game mode when you’re playing it to test one’s metal at the ‘hardest this game could be’ is going to be mired in layered systems that make it actively unplayable, unfun, and not worth your time in the slightest.

Really sucks, cause I feel many would actually find this game mode pretty appealing, if one could just ‘select difficulty, maybe randomize maps and modifiers, click once to find/pick a squad and go’. But it has to be complected otherwise wE CaN’t fOrcE in UnfUn FOmO meChaNIc’S, so its’ dead in the water and likely will be for years until the execs give up on it like crafting and let the devs finally just, do what they should have done from the start xD.

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Leaving the broken game balance untouched while introducing an even higher difficulty level - despite Maelstrom already existing as endgame content - is utterly foolish.

ideally, the difficulty tiers should have been:

Standard → Beginner to Intermediate
Auric → Intermediate to Advanced
Maelstrom → Advanced to Expert

however, since the game has become too easy, even low-level beginners and brand-new console players are now entering Auric. personally, i have no issue with beginners joining high-difficulty content, i actually enjoy carrying them. the real problem arises when all four players in a team are intermediate or higher, turning the game into a walking simulator. when you want to play a challenging game but instead end up in a party full of meta-build players where nothing happens and you clear the mission effortlessly, it’s just not fun.

meanwhile, Maelstrom is uninspiring aside from the weakened bosses and is filled with frustrating mutators. Havoc is even worse. instead of endlessly tweaking Havoc, it would be far better to improve Maelstrom, making it accessible to everyone via quick match without a ranking system, allowing for casual yet engaging gameplay.

Proposed Changes:

Standard → Covers difficulty levels 1-4.
Auric → Limited to difficulty 5, with only high-density enemy spawns removed. the base should be HISTG with additional mutators (so we don’t have to wait for an hour just to play HISTG because it rarely appears in rotation).
Maelstrom → Expands on the currently popular weakened bosses, adding more variety. Instead of the frustrating elements from Havoc, introduce challenging yet enjoyable mutators. Players should have 3 to 5 mission choices instead of just one (so we don’t have to wait hours or even half a day just for a weakened boss to appear).

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I will just repost and repeat that adding new modes that have no cross-progression with existing ones is bad. Without any fun motivation (not forcing) you can’t escape community being split.

And insted of ladder alike mode like Havoc, bring reimagined Twitch mode from V2, where you can crunch up sliders to modify difficulty as you want. And enjoy runs with x5 enemy HP and damage, x4 spawns, x10 bosses, x2 longer ability cooldown, etc.

1 Like

I think you missed the most critical part of Havoc - Havoc have no reward. The good reward will push players in most hateful mode, I’ve seen it across all games I’ve played. Id not say that armor is something wow let be honest thats a reskin and thats a one time reward

You know something is out when your dev blog about Havoc got less upvotes than the very first comment nailing the big problem with qp.
But that “will feel rewarded post-mission” killed me. Does devs know what the reward after 40-60m one button clicking in havoc is… a bigger number in god-knows which window? And after reaching 40 is …just a waste of time? I mean people who like it would play in any mode without reward but majority of people is not. Im a rich and getting richer with every hour but Im still picking diam and plast just because why not? The one week reward dont worth the effort tbh, its really the same resources that we can collect in QP. So why I need to bother about 666 steps of hell to host/find a team for havoc if I can qp in 1m?

At this point I think it would’ve been better if Havoc and Mortis Trials never were a thing and instead they focused on a big balance patch and a new class.

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I agree with everything. My additional thoughts regarding your thoughts are as follows:

I love that party finder is in the game. I hate that its essentially required unless you want to use discord or some other method. Yuk. The addition of Quickplay
would be much better.

And, risks of toxicity aside, also discourages me from even taking part in Havoc at all because whats the point unless I keep playing it!


I dont understand the new ranking system. Im sure I could, but I cant be bothered because it already doesnt appeal to me. I will probably still play some Havocs just to get the cosmetics but I will be one of those that leaves this game-mode to gather dust as soon as I have what I want.

Havoc DID appeal to me for the short while my friends played. Now theyve moved on to Monster Hunter, I have no interest in trying to form a party. I will probably just join random lobbies until I have played enough games to get the cosmetics. Iv not actually been in a rush to do this, Iv not played Havoc in ages. I might still not play Havoc for ages. There is a chance I wont at all.

I sure hope FS make some more changes:

  1. Remove the demotion mechanic. Add in ability to play any difficulty below that which Iv earned.
  2. Add quickplay for my rank (or below if I so choose)
  3. Add MANY more cosmetic rewards.
  4. Add ALL the modifiers and allow me to choose which ones I want.
  5. Add more modifiers. Add a system that rewards players who choose more modifiers.
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regarding this party finder:

it is the sole reason why i haven’t played more havoc. depending on the favor of some randoms to even start a game is so opposed to what i consider fun that i could not pick myself up to waste more time looking for a team despite trying several times. to me it was like a job interview to just get into a game, and be rejected by some guys with less than 100 true level because they were looking only at the havoc rank or at what class they wanted for their team, so by the time the game started, i was already annoyed or losing interest in it.

Mr. E has a good video on these failings of havoc, party finder rant starting ca. at 12:20

so basically you mostly have a few H40 groups who don’t accept anything lesser, and some H20 groups, and little in between.

adding to this: a tense, unpleasant mood because of the risk of demotion, and everyone looking only for the known meta builds, plus participants with a higher havoc level when possible to pull the rest of the team up the ranks.

now you’re right that the party finder by itself can be a helpful tool if you’re looking for a specific team composition, or for certain purposes like penances, but it should be optional and not mandatory for even getting into a game.

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tbh it sounds like further fragmenting an already small player base.

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Correct take.

I cleared H40. Do you think I want to join a game and try out a slightly off-meta build and risk demoting the entire team?

Bring the modifiers to Auric rotation and bin Havoc.

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I honestly want to know who at fatshark really thought making progression tougher not adding any new maps to the rotation and making it a seasonal system would some how addressing any of the issues that make the mode incredibly unappealing to play.

Also the modifiers they are adding is more of, enemies hit harder and take more punishment. Really thinking outside of the box here.

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Ahh hell, calling me out directly then..

Honestly, havoc games just take a damned age to finish. A game that is normally 25-30 minutes can turn into a 50 minute slot. It’s not that I don’t enjoy being challenged, it’s that it’s a gameplay mode where you aren’t allowed to even itch your nose, because it’s 50 straight minutes of having your game face on..

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Not everything developed needs to be in response to demand. Nor is cool additions to games, perceived as non-essential, make it a waste of effort or time.

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Just give it another 18 months and it might get reworked into something palatable :pensive_face:

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Havoc seemed like a good idea but in practice has been awful. Fatshark remains impervious to feedback or the concept of player agency.

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This is probably the most compelling argument out of everything written in the OP.
I like Havoc as-is, and welcome the changes that are coming in. But you make a very good point here with this. There’s a lot I disagree with in your OP, but we can find common ground on this sentiment that I quoted from you.

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I can’t really engage with the post because the imagery used makes it hard to take the discussion seriously. A picture says a thousand words, and this one isn’t saying much for good faith conversation

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You can take breaks in the little rooms where you hit the button; the sanitation rooms or w/e they’re called.