Has the thread opened by Gpkgpk been deleted?

[gpkgpk]

Good lord! ChatGPT? really ?

By @Badwin and @Amelia 's own standards they are cheats, not just mine (which clearly is not).
They double down on it by calling my mod a cheat, which means the ESP mods are for sure cheats. @Badwin even stated “cheese=cheat”, and
They’re both just too afraid to say it here, why? Because they might ruffle some feathers?
I could see why @Badwin would be scared, some of the ESP mod authors are moderators on Discord, and so is their buddy, other author, and “promoted there”; he doesn’t want to get on their bad sides.

But again, they both already admitted to it in their responses and their accusations, they just can’t say so instead it’s constant deflection and avoidance.

But holy cow, neither of them has cited some idiotic chatGPT response, bravo, you’ve outdone yourself!

And to go further with the silly “well PVE so who cares” is wow.
I find #3 very interesting.

So, in search of an other authority to appeal to which you seem to crave, and because FS isn’t one, you turn to chatGPT? And you also don’t seem to have read or understood #3.

[Badwin]

I have practically no relationship with anyone on the modding Discord, and just about anything I’ve ever said to any of the other modders can be found there in the publicly-viewable search history. I’m not afraid of anything, not dodging anything, not simping for anything or anyone.

I just happen to hold a very simple set of beliefs, which I’ve explained over and over:

1. All of the mods discussed here, and elsewhere ad nauseam and including yours (especially LessAnnoyingIndicators) offer a tangible and patently unfair advantage over players who cannot mod, and I could see how someone could take issue with any or all of them.

2. The benefits that any of the existing mods impart are so minuscule, and so apart from what it takes to be successful in this game, that they do not materially impact the enjoyment of the game for other players and are therefore harmless.

3. I think people should play with whichever of these mods they’d like to, as long as it makes the game more enjoyable for them and doesn’t run afoul of FS’s modding policy (which none of the mods we’ve discussed do imo).

4. And I think calling people names, or (incessantly ugh!) claiming they are morally deficient, over the mods they choose to use to improve their experience is pretty far off base.

[gpkgpk]

@Badwin

publicly-viewable search history.

Oh right, [this part](https://i’ll preface this by saying i haven’t really used SS, but adjusting the size/opacity of indicators based on volume – e.g. less opaque and wider for quieter sounds…but then does the volume indicate range, as you’ve pointed out? – might be more in line with what gpk would be interested in. i’m doubtful he’ll participate in a conversation here, so in the meantime i’ll just say that it also seems gpk is bothered by the accuracy in the rear 180 degrees of the player, the events/rate that trigger indicators, the ability to set a range threshold for different enemies (the advantage being not worrying about dogs until they’re close, i assume), the extra local indicator graphics, the text indicators for pounce/cleave, and probably a few other things.), it was quite something.

@Badwin

(especially LessAnnoyingIndicators)

Especially huh, by all means please elaborate, expose me for the fraud you think I am (again).
How does it compare to the ESP mods? I know you won’t directly answer, but you already have indirectly. Hint: look at DLs too.

@Badwin

offer a tangible and patently unfair advantage over players who cannot mod, and I could see how someone could take issue with any or all of them.

Interesting!

@Badwin

The benefits that any of the existing mods impart are so minuscule,

Absolutely false, proven so by actual vids and commented on by more than just me. This is such transparent hogwash, downplaying the impact the cheaty mods actually have on a game in an attempt to legitimize them. Go read all the user comments “this feels like cheating” etc.

@Badwin

And I think calling people names, or (incessantly ugh!) claiming they are morally deficient, over the mods they choose to use to improve their experience is pretty far off base.

It absolutely is a moral and ethical failing, how is using cheats to “improve their experience” not? That fact that you don’t see it as such is itself a failing.

[Ralendil]

@gpkgpk

Good lord! ChatGPT? really ?

Yes… cause I wanted to see how an IA can answer to this. I could be wrong after all.

@gpkgpk

By @Badwin and @Amelia 's own standards they are cheats, not just mine (which clearly is not).

Did you read what they said?
I doubt. Or are you just trying to provocate?

@Badwin

It removes visual clutter, which is counter to the vanilla design of the game and which could subjectively be viewed as cheating since you derive a tangible benefit from it. Just like all the mods you claim are objectively ethically wrong.

The important word is… subjectively
This means, from your own definition you gave us by the past. At least this is what I have understood.
But they (@Badwin and @Amelia) could confirm…

@gpkgpk

They’re both just too afraid to say it here, why? Because they might ruffle some feathers?

Maybe cause they just wanted to expose your point of view that is extremly subjective.

[Imperator1]

@Heretical_Cactus

• Tree Helper: Will have to check it, but as I understand, highlight the correct circle
• Health bar: While it give additional information, tbh I don’t think it really will help, but still on the line
• Extended weapon customisation: If sights are supposed to be part of the balance, then it does cross it
• Collectible finder: Highlight collectible, making it easier, so cheating on a smaller part of the game
• Spidey Sense: Is it accessibility, or cheating. That’s debatable.
• Decode Helper: Somewhat the same as Tree Helper, but doesn’t really change as much compared to it

Tree helper I agree it is a Cheat in the sense it makes something that is supposed to be taking longer or more difficult easy.

Healthbars i dont think it is a Cheat. However I believe they should inplement this in the game so players can learn and understand what works and does not work against certain enemies.

I have not tries weapon customisation but from what I have read it was supposed to release to the base game but got dropped ( correct me if im wrong )

Collectible Finder I dont see as a Cheat in the sense it does not give any advantage gameplay wise. I dont even understand why you would want this tbh.

Spidey sense is a mixed bag. If the ingame alerts worked as they should there would not be a need for this, however it does not work atm. I agree when the ingame alerts are fixed it should be removed but currently it is a bandaid fix on high int mission were sometimes the entire game sound bugs out.

Decode helper is in my opinion were the line is. It is litterly on that line of is it a Cheat or not.

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

Maybe cause they just wanted to expose your point of view that is extremly subjective.

It’s really not that subjective, this is just a cheap rhetorical ploy to provide cover.
And yes, you’re right about those two, that was their intent, partially, the other part being to discredit me, but hilariously in doing so they both just basically admitted by their own definition what I label as cheats, they label as cheats. Not only that, Badwin has stricter standards in that he sees “cheese=cheats”.

But hey, maybe I need to appeal to chatGPT as my moral authority, AI-assisted ethics is the field of the future!

P.S. Since your rigid legaleze mind seems concerned with “rules” and authority, nothing is a cheat because there isn’t anything really defined by FS. This ofc doesn’t mean that intellectually and ethically, you can’t determine what a cheat is, the classic “I’ll know it when I see it”, most people can tell.

[gpkgpk]

@Imperator1

Healthbars i dont think it is a Cheat. However I believe they should inplement this in the game so players can learn and understand what works and does not work against certain enemies.

They were in the game originally FYI but were removed for release.
Healthbars is great for the training grounds, I suspect the (partial)reason it was removed by FS was because it can qualify as a cheat (it’s ESP to me).
OFC in its current modded state it’s highly configurable so there are extra implications (cue Dennis) there.

[Ralendil]

@gpkgpk

I suspect the (partial)reason it was removed by FS was because it can qualify as a cheat (it’s ESP to me).

I suspect that they removed it cause it is ugly and something that heavily breaks the immersion.
Imagine they would have made a trailer with these horrible bars…

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

I suspect that they removed it cause it is ugly and something that heavily break the immersion.

Quite plausible as a reason, plausible or otherwise, most people don’t seem concerned with immersion over a sizable tactical advantage in-game.

Imagine they would have made a trailer with these horrible bars…

They kinda did with the early vids, like on PC Gamer.

[Imperator1]

@gpkgpk

They were in the game originally FYI but were removed for release.
Healthbars is great for the training grounds, I suspect the (partial)reason it was removed by FS was because it can qualify as a cheat (it’s ESP to me).
OFC in its current modded state it’s highly configurable so there are extra implications

I have it on now but i dont see how it could be seen as cheating. But maybe thats a difference of opinion.

What does ESP stand for ?

@Ralendil

I suspect that they removed it cause it is ugly and something that heavily breaks the immersion.

Immersion I could agree on but i personly dont find it ugly, maybe it looked worse back then ?

I would like to add that so far darktide is one of the very few games that I play does not have healthbars natively even some pvp games have them.

[Ralendil]

@gpkgpk

But hey, maybe I need to appeal to chatGPT as my moral authority, AI-assisted ethics is the field of the future!

Yes, we talk about different things.
I point out rules, something that is written.
You talk about morality, something that is linked to each human being. If everybody had the same sense of morality, we wouldn’t need laws…

In fact, you are trying to argue that everyone should have the same sense of morality, but that is wrong.

I have said it several times: I would really prefer that Fatshark pin a thread where they list the mods that are definitively forbidden and enforce the rule.

Until then, there is nothing wrong if a player uses a mod that is authorized. The remaining question concerns mods that are absolutely not on Nexus or that were removed from it but are still being used. This is why I would like such a statement about what is forbidden.

However, you are not in charge of deciding what is a cheat or not. Nor are you allowed to decide what is moral or not.
(EDIT and clarification: You are absolutely free to think, and to say, that you feel a certain mod should be labeled as a cheat and forbidden… but that is different from stating that it is a cheat just because you decided so.)
But again, and here I think we can agree (at least on this point ), Fatshark should intervene and clarify their position on this. They are the developers of the game, and the decision is in their hands.

Since the community does not agree on the meaning of their last statement, they need to provide clarification. However, this clarification could also be something like, “Feel free to use whatever mods you want.”

Actually, I suspect that they don’t really want to police the mods beyond basic enforcement.

@Imperator1

Immersion I could agree on but i personly dont find it ugly, maybe it looked worse back then ?

It is ugly in my opinion
You can like it… but I won’t use healthbar mod cause I dislike totally to see health bars everywhere on my screen.
This is the same reason why I don’t use spidey sense. I wanted to test it cause of the long discussion about it, and see if it really gives the so huge advantage that several had claimed… but, it is extremely annoying, and doesn’t help me. But, as I said numerous times, if I had an hearing problem, I would assuredly use it.

@Imperator1

What does ESP stand for ?

Yes, I love ChatGPT…

In the context of Darktide, ESP is something we find in all mods that are not purely QoL. In fact, mods started with the idea that the game lacked several features, like the scoreboard.

However, we are talking about a PvE game and authorized mods. Personal opinion: This cannot be labeled as a cheat when it is authorized, especially in a PvE context.

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

Personal opinion: This cannot be labeled as a cheat when it is authorized, especially in a PvE context.

I know it’s your personal opinion, but it’s fundamentally flawed on both points, repeating myself:

• There is no authorized or unauthorized barring a couple of extremely narrow points, FS dev further elaborated they want no involvement and the “authority” is the community.
• The whole “it’s PvE so cheat don’t matter” is absurd, others have already explained this better than I could. At least one FS dev agrees with you, but that doesn’t make it any less absurd or valid.

@Ralendil

ESP is something we find in all mods that are not purely QoL.

This isn’t really true, and this is where the whole relative/subjective stuff comes into play. There are degrees and severity, and some totally eclipse others, in order of magnitudes. Without naming them, we all know what they are and they have a common frame of reference.
Trying to lump any non-QoL mod into “well it’s ESP then” is just silly, it’s another smokescreen.

You can’t honesty and sincerely dump CleanForceBlocking into the same category as radars, trackers and HP indicator mods, the actual ESP mods. All those “well it’s a tiny advantage so it doesn’t matter” attempts you guys twist to suit your false narrative applies here. This goes double for something that actually removes, oh IDK, a nauseating effect with actual accessibility concerns. Or hmm, let’s say making a nearly imperceptible targeting VFX that most people don’t even know exist because it’s nigh invisible, visible. These are on the same level as ESP mods? Lies.

@Ralendil

You talk about morality, something that is linked to each human being. If everybody had the same sense of morality, we wouldn’t need laws…

You almost got it there! Keep drilling down on this.

[Ralendil]

you did not comment this part:

@Ralendil

But again, and here I think we can agree (at least on this point ), Fatshark should intervene and clarify their position on this. They are the developers of the game, and the decision is in their hands.

Since the community does not agree on the meaning of their last statement, they need to provide clarification. However, this clarification could also be something like, “Feel free to use whatever mods you want.”

Can we agree on this?

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

But again, and here I think we can agree (at least on this point ), Fatshark should intervene and clarify their position on this. They are the developers of the game, and the decision is in their hands.

Sure, OFC.

@Ralendil

“Feel free to use whatever mods you want.”

They already made that statement indirectly, with caveats. Everything is permitted “legally”, the only part that seems to interest you, becasue nothing is forbidden “legally”.
That means the wallhack mod that was removed from nexus, the one that forced you to look around, was as legitimate as other more popular and accepted radar and wallhacks. Nexus chose to remove it, probably because users flagged it and it was some unknown dev with funny characters in their name. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just because an ESP cheat is legally allowed, doesn’t mean it’s still not a cheat. I object to the cheaty mods on ethical grounds, they meat the criteria of “anything goes”.
I also choose to follow FS policy in not showing mercy to those who use cheats and further brag about them, that’s my responsibility as FS laid it out. So all your narc reports that got my “rude” and other posts deleted were “legal” in that respect if that suits you. You use cheats, you’re a cheater.

The caveats to said policy being FS wanted no involvement in policing, and that the policing would be up the community, mod authors and mod users. See “mercy” and “bragging” mention as well in the dev post on Discord.
Again, this information was stupidly disseminated in modder’s Discord and obfuscated, not shared in the official FS forums for all to see and participate and live up to their responsibilities.

P.S. I had added a paragraph to earlier post.
P.P.S. I made a mistake by not re-mentioning that others using cheats DOES affect your game, the cheater does affect others, you can argue how much, but that does violate FS’s initial modding policy posted here.

[Zoralink]

I’ve definitely seen some very uneven moderation on topics here, largely around people being passive aggressive and if you point it out/respond bluntly to it you become the bad guy.

[gpkgpk]

@Pegged-By-Hadron

It was closed down because @gpkgpk couldn’t handle the heat.

Aw looks who’s back. Thread was locked down because you and your other cheater buddies flagged my posts. Funny how none of yours, like this one, was flagged innit.

LMAO which one of you is this? This should be good, gd priceless.
Summary - FatShark-Fun-Police - Fatshark Forums

[Ralendil]

@gpkgpk

Aw looks who’s back. Thread was locked down because you and your buddies flagged my posts. Funny how none of yours, like this one, was flagged innit.

one of them was flagged… by me

[gpkgpk]

I get why your rigid legal mind would see value in this, but it doesn’t serve a real purpose. The point to my not-so-gentle prodding is for people to expose themselves further so that not only do I gain insight into people’s behavior and acceptance re:cheats, but also just in general. Further conversation on important subjects is valuable, censoring it because of ruffled feathers is counter-productive.

Being “attacked” here by cheaters is a badge of honor and it’s not my first rodeo. If it makes you uncomfortable just ignore them barring outright racism and bigotry, I can’t control what FS or CMs do, but I for one welcome their posts.

[TrueZealot]

Rip debate about spider sense mod. Rip dream to become spiderman in Darktide.

[gpkgpk]

LMAO, oh lord, who knew college kids could be so entertaining!