A 15% attack speed buff? I’m pretty sure that would break it since it isn’t actually bad currently.
The glaive doesn’t have anywhere close to the reach the halberd does. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
Using the bricks near the rewards chest pedestal to measure distance the glaive has ~8.5 bricks of range compared to halberd ~10. PS4 prevents me from being more accurate.
I’ve been thinking about this suggestion more, and one thing occurs to me about your overall change suggestions. It would make L1 block cancel oppressively stronger than other options once more, AKA the only combo that is significantly uglier than L1 → H2. I know you sort of address that with your final sentence, but honestly I shudder to think how much you’d need to buff H2 sweep to make it compete with L1 block cancel with your combo change ideas. I’m pretty sure L1 block cancel still technically wins in a lot of scenarios with the current combos, add another attack in between L1 and H2 and now you’re gonna need to buff H2 into the stratosphere for it to keep up.
So yeah while I mostly agree with your premise/issues, your suggestions are not at all appealing to me. Agreed about H1 → L2 → L3 though. Delays should be tweaked there to have a slightly more natural feeling rhythm. Shouldn’t require large adjustment though, it mostly feels good as is to me.
1 Like
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I wouldn’t mind it that much if L1 block cancel was best DPS against hordes with Halberd. My thought process is this - as someone who didn’t use block cancel even before the BBB changes, I’d just use the sweep combo, or light attacks with pushes mixed in for hordes and pretend block cancel isn’t a thing, while people who want to min max the Halberd will put in more effort and use block cancel. Probably sounds bad, but I don’t think the difference would be that stark.
Let’s assume the attack speed gets buffed as well, it could be that not all attacks get an equal buff. L1 could be buffed by just 5%, while the rest of the attacks get 10% increase, and H2 could even benefit from 15%, though that might be much. That benefits block cancel less than it does other combos. Let’s also talk about the DPS difference. The data that Incandescent showed probably assumes that L1 sweep hits for maximum cleave, but that’s very rarely the case when elites and shields are mixed in. Cataclysm hordes are about 50% mixed with elites I’d say, and in modded realm it is very difficult to activate Paced Strikes and keep it for even 50% of a horde. It’s practically a single-target weapon there. Tank modifier elite cleave H2 sweep would give guaranteed value against mixed hordes, offer a lot more crowd control, guaranteed access to Paced Strikes even against patrols, and with a 10-15 attack speed buff would very likely offer much better benefits and DPS than just L1 spam against at least mixed hordes. At the very least, I don’t think the combo would be far behind in overall efficacy.
Even now, it’s not like L1 spam has dissapeared. It’s still a thing, many people still use it, it still has and would continue to have its advantages, unless it was utterly nuked. Ultimately, it’ll still be part of an optimal rotation of the weapon for those who want to engage in it, but I don’t think it’d be mandatory in the slightest and easily ignored.
I mean I’m gonna disregard the talk of modded there, cause, well you know why. I’m not convinced that L1 would struggle that much to keep paced strikes and the like up in base Cata TBH. I dunno I guess I’ll have to go mess around with its current iteration more to get a better feel for it. I get that light 1 block cancel is gonna remain unless something fairly radical is done with the weapon, but there’s a difference between ignoring it when it’s barely optimal to ignoring it when it’s noticeably more optimal. I’m fine with the former, but the latter is pretty bothersome.
I dunno, maybe tank and a little attack speed would be enough, I’d worry you’d need to give it enough attack speed to start making it look janky for a different reason TBH. I’m no halberd expert though so I’ll back out at this point. Otherwise I’m just hypothesising vaguely about things that probably need actual calculations to get to the bottom of.
1 Like
Well, I’m kind of used to permanent Paced Strikes with Greatsword, but I definitely feel the difficulty in getting Paced Strikes sometimes, something I have to actually try a bit to get. And when taking out targets with single-target attacks like Warriors, you’re not getting that buff.
1 Like
Sure but you’re still not getting paced strikes against CWs with tank modifier, nor when you’re using single target attacks generally so I don’t really see what difference that would be from now? A bit easier to get paced strikes in mixed hordes if you commit to a 3 hit combo?
Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of your suggested combo from a game feel perspective. I even had a suggestion in mind that reversed l1 and l2 as well to make block cancelling sweeps impossible, but however I tried to figure it out it ended up in messy combo trees so abandoned the idea.
Hitboxes.
Halberd has a lot of reach with some deadzone between you and the actual hitbox.
(Probably to make it feel like an actual polearm)
It’s usually not a problem unless enemies get inside you and/or you’re aiming too high.
4 Likes
It’s not that ugly. Have you seen L1 > QQ? Now that’s ugly.
1 Like
^my face when i go back to VT2 after years of not playing.
Exactly the same issue i have with this.
Light attack ↔ Heavy attack infinite combo - isn’t some hidden move tech for advanced players (like QQ cancel, or even block cancel), its a pretty basic thing. It should look good and not so jank & repetitive.
I like the Heavy sweep on halberd, liked even before the change to combos, because its the best way to proc Paced Strikes. And now it even has armor cleave. But incorporating the Heavy sweep in combos - means i either see the exact same animation before, or after the Heavy, which is so jarring to me. (Unless i stick to Heavies only - but thats usually too slow.)
I’m so glad to see this message, it gives me hope (even though faint) that halberd can be saved (in my eyes).
So to outline the concept we agree on:
What remains the same
- Light combo: Light sweep → Light stab → Light overhead.
- Heavy combo: Heavy stab → Heavy sweep.
- Push attack combo: Push → Light overhead → Light overhead
What can be changed:
- Light sweep → Heavy stab → Light overhead
- Heavy stab ↔ Light overhead (repeating combo)
- Light sweep → Light stab → Heavy sweep
- Heavy sweep ↔ Light stab (repeating combo)
^ this is how Heavy sweep ↔ Light stab combo can look in principle (if you imagine Light stab instead of Heavy stab here).
^ and this is a rough example of Heavy stab ↔ Light overhead. That will look good, more varied than double stab combo.
Finally if we talk about balance, about Light block cancel becoming the better option.
Well think of it like this: Heavy sweep have armor sliding, so the Heavy sweep ↔ Light stab combo already sounds appealing.
Then we get a better single target combo than before in: Heavy stab ↔ Light overhead, especially vs armored enemies. So the weapon doesn’t need perfect horde clear imo, and thus the Light block cancel can have a little bit reduced speed (by increasing the time to block after Light 1).
And even if thats not enough (or its bad to nerf block-speed), then add some oomph to Light 2 stab, so that when you cleave and control things with Heavy sweeps, you aim and one shot stuff with Light Stab more easily.
Why is the heavy stab, light stab, light overhead worse?
Anyway the billhook has the same heavy cycle: stab and overhead so maybe they would be too similar.
Because light stab is worse than light overhead, especially weak vs armor.
For Billhook, its 2 heavy attacks, for Halberd it would be 1 heavy and 1 light attack, a bit different in feel.
Certain weapon elements are bound to be similar, if we have so much weapons (polearms), i’m afraid. But there’s still enough difference overall and they’re on different characters.
You know what? I can make this combo if you want to test it.
You mean the full concept? (including changes to sweep combos) I’m down for that.
Its gonna be a mod for mod realm? I know only how to install from workshop btw.
Honestly I see no reason to revert to the old attack order, so I think this one:
Heavy stab → Light overhead
I already implemented changes to this weapon, so it wouldn’t be the only thing.
And yes, modded weapons work only in the modded realm.
So you dont have a problem with double sweep from the same side? How it looks?:
Thats the primary change i want (it to be gone), everything else is just accommodating it.
And Heavy Sweep ↔ Light Stab repeating combo (that i want instead) - it wasn’t there in the old halberd.
It’s just as boring as the L1 block cancel. I rarely use the halberd anyway so it doesn’t bother me much.
You can use light sweep light stab cancel instead so I see no problem here.
I found the heavy swing too slow so I skipped it entirely.
Halberd is a polearm, you hands are far from each other when gripping it, so its moves are more limited than other weapons. If you hold it with right hand forward as Kruber does, you physically cannot swing from the left side. At least not with a cutting motion, only with the hook. So it would be weird to add the billhook’s swing from the left and make an X pattern.
The push attack of the billhook is nonsense.
And there aren’t other animations available, no horizontal swing or diagonal from the right bottom.
Yes, i’m aware, and i too don’t want a mirrored swing from the left (after Light 1 Sweep). Sweeps are to be interjected with stabs, like i already said: Heavy Sweep ↔ Light Stab.
I purposefully avoid using that.
Thing is, i love heavy sweep, in any iteration of it (even before they added armor cleave).
Its a different tool from the Light sweep, and i like to use it often. But the way its comboed now with the light attack - is just plain ugly.
Well, I just implemented the Heavy stab → Light overhead. So you can try it if you want.