Grudge Marks - New and Old

I like Grudge Marks. They finally add some threat to bosses which is rarely found anymore, especially so in the Chaos Wastes. However, as so often there could be more to them as what we currently have. There have been a lot of discussions and suggestions concerning existing ones and the first part of the post will cover that too (mostly Illusionist). But we have not seen very much suggestions for new Grudge Marks. So I will give some (not yet fine-tuned) suggestions on the second part.


Grudge Marks - Current Ones:

I think with the recent implementation of avoiding certain combinations to be possible, most issues of Grudge Marks have been solved. However, people seem still to have anger issues with some of them, mostly Rampart and Illusionist. So I will give some personal thoughts on these (and maybe others too):

  • Illusionist: Probably the most hated one right now. There are nearly as many Illusionist threads as there are “Let’s finally nerf the broken SotT and ranged equipment” threads. As far as I am concerned I can live without changes to Illusion. For me it is like a poster child of what Grudge Marks should be: different, chaotic, threatening. There have been a lot of suggestions for the Grudge Mark, none which really are a good solution in my opinion. Often people just want it removed which is probably the most boring (non-solution). Another idea is to make illusions actual illusion like most people understand them (depending on fantasy setting illusions can hurt you if you think they are real, not sure how it is in Warhammer) and make them not deal out any damage which would make them obsolete though since you just have to mark the original and ignore the rest. I doubt there would be much confusion. Other ideas are making Illusions spawn in staggered state and/or without Grudge Mark which would however just set them down to fodder level as we have seen with monsters before the Marks have been introduced.
    So what would I change? There are two options. The first one would be “Feedback”, meaning that after destroying all three illusions the original monster would be staggered and couldn’t move for 5-15 seconds. This would give time to actual damage it and remove the non-stop fighting because right now when you finish the illusions, new ones already spawn. With this there would be a down-time for it. Could also be made that for each killed illusion the original monster wouldn’t move for five seconds. In both cases, there would be an actual and good reason to go for the illusions. The second option and probably the more interesting one is to give more control over the spawning of illusions. Right now three illusions spawn every thirty seconds (I think) which makes it hard to get out of the cycle of fighting non-stop illusions. As such I would tie the spawning of illusions to the health of the original monster. An adequate number has to be chosen, let’s take 8 as an example. For each loss of an eigth of its health, the original monster would spawn an illusion up to three if they don’t get killed. This means that the player can approximately assume at what point a new illusion would spawn and mentally prepare. They can also decide if they keep attacking the original to get it down fast or kill illusion before spawning new ones. It would also some thought for the usage of Morgrim’s Bomb and career skills (especially at lower difficulties) as damaging a monster for half its health would instantly spawn three illusions, same if you manage to ledge it. It would not negate those skills but maybe it would be wiser to not use them for once. Best of, there isn’t much change needed to the Grudge Mark. Health-based triggers are also already in game by Trolls. There are still open questions how to regard regeneration effects etc.
  • Rampart: Don’t care what other people say. It can stay as it is because each career has adequate enough melee play to fight a monster. I mean Fatshark could theoretically add a percentage to it just for “caring” like only 90 % of ranged damage is negated. What does changing though is that DoT still damages the monsters. How comes that the busted Moonfire Bow and the less busted Coruscation Staff still do good damage on them?

I’ll skip out on the remaining Grudge Marks for now, for the sake of thread length.


Grudge Marks - New Ones:

The list is a bit older so there might be some weird text fragments in. They are also not perfectly end-planned and just food for thought. We should use threads sometimes also to give some new ideas. Because if more Grudge Marks are introduced annoying ones may become less of an issue (unless new ones are more annoying :P). So post own ideas as much as possible. With that said:

• Foul Stench/Foul Existence: Monsters exude a foul stench in a circular area causing the “A Quiet Drink” debuff of feeling dizzy and being unable to use career skills.
• Pack leader: Upon appearing the Monster activates an unending stream of horde enemies until it is disposed off. Would need a good coordination of the team.
• Leeching Off: This could be a “replacement” idea for Vampiric and/or Regenerating. Monsters with this Grudge Mark can regenerate by leeching health off close-by enemies slowly killing them in the process. The more and stronger enemies there are the more he regenerates. This gives the players control over the regeneration of the monster by controlling the adds.
• Sol-Eater: Upon appearing the Darkness mutator will apply with the monster being a walking torch. Forces you to stay close to the monster with adds being more dangerous. Stormfiend might be an issue though if they jump up and down or take to long getting to the player.
• Medusa: I have no idea how to explain this lore-wise but anyway. All players outside a moderately large circle from the boss will become petrified. They can neither move nor can they be damaged. So remaining players would have to get close to the petrified players to get them engage in the fight again. If a player dies the boss will choose a new victim so that the game wont softlock with forever petrified heroes. It can be discussed if heroes are still a viable target for enemies while petrified (overwhelmed when unpetrified versus to much pressure on free players). Would need a sufficient aura though. Tricky to balance.
• Agitating: All enemies AND heroes in the area of the boss will slowly gain more attack speed (1 % each 3 seconds up to 50 %) and also movement speed (1 % each 10 seconds up to 15 %). This makes both heroes and enemies stronger at the same pace. So, either keep the boss alive for faster dispatch of enemies or kill it fast before it gets an issue. This one still needs tweaking.
• Switching: This could also be used as a potential Shadow-Step rework. The Grudge Mark does nothing as long as you don’t use career skills (and maybe bombs). Upon pressing “F” (still need to figure out what to do with Engineer and Stealth Career Skills though, maybe continuous teleporting for the duration) the monster will switch positions with a random player. This will make the monster immune to most single burst damage attacks (minus Shade) while still retaining the career skills themselves. You could still Bounty Hunter faceshoot your teammate in hope the monster teleports there ……
• Iron Front: The monster is only damageable from the backside. Would make it unbeatable as solo players but that is not a design issue.

And with this I will leave it for new suggestions at the moment as it is quite late right now. Just want to add that the Grudge Marks suggested are currently just considered isolated. I understand that a combination of Pack Leader and Leeching Off would be a nightmare. There are most likely more. So there may be need for more restrictions on possible combinations.


Lastly, I would like to remind again that this is still an “issue”: Potion of Poison Aegis

Potion of Aegis is still far to limited in actual usage. Aside from making players “immune” to curses as suggested in the linked thread it could also be used to let a player “ignore” certain Grudge Marks like being able to range damage a monster if under potion effect or not getting the Crippling debuff when hit. Stuff like that.

Lord help me if I sound elitist, but I think the community is still learning how to deal with Illusionist.

The illusions themselves are weak and the Mark is easily identified because it has an objective marker on it. I’m fairly convinced the hate for it is legit because of the visual feedback and panic it causes (the real guaranteed game ender was consistently shield-breaker + crippling before that combo was removed. Now either of those + relentless or invincible is the highest threat enemy).

All rampart is doing is increasing how long it takes to kill a boss and making Huntsman players feel bad, but that’s it.

This is really not the issue with it. For most I would say the issues start when you get randomly pushed off the ledge by an copy or get stuck between 4 copies without any way out. Copies when they spawn should have some time before they can attack so you can at least react to some of the more absurd situations.

2 Likes

I will ask you a very rude question.

How do YOU deal with 3 illusions spawning right on top of you, instantly surrounding you and making you unable to do anything?

2 Likes

I’m gonna jump in here and add that what I hate about illusionist is the fact the illusion bosses can spawn in right behind you and bodyblock you vs the actual boss, there’s zero counterplay to having two spawns appear behind you like bruisers at a night club so their boss can devour your face. The knockback so many bosses provide is disgusting in arenas with ledges too but I still find the spawning behind you the worst part. The first change I’d like to see (if they don’t remove the mark) is to have the bosses spawn out of the original one, ie start in the same place.

I’m surprised crippling wasn’t mentioned as I find this the most disgusting one, particularly in combination with the other Grudge Marks. If you get crippled and the boss sticks to you it’s a death sentence. I find it the worst mark as far as synergies with other marks and counterplay goes. In many situations once you get crippled you’re just flat out doomed, you have to hope enemies ignore you or you will get block broken (if you weren’t by the boss) + smacked down.

Rampart doesn’t bother me so much as you can kill every boss in melee. It doesn’t solve GK deleting bosses however, just BH OE etc. Feels like a bandaid solution but I don’t mind it. If you aren’t unlucky to get a boss you can’t stagger you can still interrupt them with BH ults at least.

I’m not sure how I feel about this one. Bosses with rampart can already counteract certain career skills eg BH ult gives stagger but no damage - or on mino with relentless it’s very easy to eat a cheap hit on GK if you use the two stab ult. I kinda feel like counteracting certain career skills via other marks is more elegant than having it so you flat out can’t use any career skills.

These seem good, especially Leeching Off as it offers counterplay - you could use the health drain in theory to eliminate a patrol or berserkers.

I’m not sure how I feel on this sounds like it’d vary between having no effect or just a giant annoyance. It doesn’t sound fun to me. Maybe a curse effect that reduces max HP (like the nurgle torch maps) and the monster acts as ‘the torch’ but with larger radius.

That way you have some time to react, especially vs mino charges etc…, or vs bad terrain.

This sounds fun. I’m not sure if it’d break enemy animations (especially with berserkers, beastmen, maybe overheads etc) or cause some weird jank though, like charging attacks from even more crazy distances. I like the buffing idea.

Maybe but nobody is gonna use an ult that may kill their teammate in the hopes that the boss teleports there (25% chance - or 33% if the person ulting can’t be used as the teleport point). Losing a teammate is much worse than dealing some damage to the boss. I imagine BH ult would not get used at all while GK still could as it doesn’t FF. I suspect shouts would be favoured overall. The big problem I see is getting places switched with a boss that is out of bounds - or one that has been ledged. Those two scenarios would have to be excluded or this wouldn’t be fun.

Also careers with a short CD dash ability eg handmaiden would lose all their clutch potential unless the boss can’t TP to the user OR downed players.

I would make this one deactivate when half or more of the team is downed, so if there’s one player left the boss is damageable from all sides. In bad terrain it will make ledging the boss even more optimal than risking the team getting ledged however, but it could be fun in places that aren’t all ledges.

Though if the boss is also stagger immune from the front it would get really stupid fast if it’s a stormfiend with his back to a cliff.

2 Likes

Don’t stand still, don’t horde items or ult, and don’t panic. The game is giving me advanced warning what the boss is about to do, I can and should spend the next 30 seconds preparing for that. We know what threat illusions have in advanced but we also know they are going to die faster, so play with your team accordingly.

Well, the objective is to reduce the usage of career skills. Although in this case it is not a flat out rejection. The melee career skills can not be used on monsters in this case. The ranged career skills can be though if the player is outside of the circular area (in the rest of the post called aura). In the end this is a question of the range of the aura how hard it hits.

Could certainly play around that. But it depends on how fast the drain is. On the one hand it will eat up surrounding enemies, on the other hand it would regenerate really fast. This should be taken into consideration so that adds still pose a threat and not get fast drained by the boss.

It would probably be end up having not much effect unless one party member decides to go yolo somewhere else. It definetely needs some more thought. Not a big fan of HP reducing stuff though.

Animations are an issue, it will probably looking quite silly which might be an issue. I think I heard of slow down effects not being implemented for that reason.

The BH part was a joke. But I admit I did not consider out of bonds scenarios (being ledged is avoidable if players pay attention). So on Stormfiends it would be an absolute no-go as they jump to much. On the remaining monsters it would have to get an initial cooldown until they are in combat where it shouldnt be an issue anymore. Also, as before the objective is reduction of career skill reliance on killing bosses.

A safe fail for solo scenarios could be an idea. Maybe it could also come with a debuff for the monster of getting more damage from melee attacks in the back to make the ordeal faster. No damage from the front, more damage from the back.

Thanks for the input.

1 Like

That’s fine for open areas. Monsters with illusionist also spawn in narrow passages or areas with cliffs on all sides and only about 2 or 3 dodges worth of land to work with.

Now, granted, maybe the correct solution is “just don’t open chests if they are in bad locations even if that means skipping 50% of chests”. Unfortunately no one is going to convince the majority of the population to do this, and it’s also not fun to have a mechanic like grudge marks and boons where the ideal play is to ignore it.

2 Likes
Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu