Sounds like something the zealot would enjoy. Repenting by playing qp.
On a serious note I think that a rework in line with what Incan or Froh suggest would be reasonable.
Generally speaking, when discussing this topic you should try to remember that Zealot is just one out of sixteen careers and even though a majority prefer to play with max stacks, far from everyone does. There are so many zealot players you meet in game that feel it’s their right to not have their tHP challenged and that “reprimand” fellow players for not adjusting to their playatyle. That’s fine for role-playing purposes but it’s mainly just causing toxicity or further saltiness. It’s also not bringing any points across when expressed in the forums.
I mean I agree his core design is a little problematic, but right now still patiently waiting for minor talent/weapon rebalancing (+deed rework etc.). A whole class rework feels a bit too fanciful to hypothesise on sadly. Most realistic is there’s some relatively minor fix that helps with this specific interaction.
In general I do think it’s currently an issue that needs addressing. The vast majority of Zealot’s kit revolves around stacks, and taking management of them - arguably his core gameplay gimmick - largely out of his hands is problematic in a way no other cross class interaction is that comes to mind.
I do hope OP isn’t seriously trying to force specific talent/class loadouts on other players in QP purely for their benefit though. That’s kinda toxic, amaranthe & grail Knight regen are hugely beneficial for the other 3 party members guaranteed. It’s bad design sadly, but any team minded Zealot who plans to PUG needs to just deal with it for the overall good of the run.
It’s a weird one, because that incentivizes taking damage and yet he’s given more tools than every other Career to not take damage or to mitigate it with playstyle. He also currently has an optimal health to be at, where he recieves a 6 stack of w/e Talent he’s chosen. Which feels a little awkward to me.
I’m not sure how exactly he’s supposed to feel. It looks as if he’s supposed to trade hits a lot, but the AS and his mobility with most of his Weapons mean that won’t happen. Most people just try to take loads of damage at the start of the match and don’t really go under 70% for the rest of it because of the passives.
It’s fun once you reach that amount of health, but the mechanics of it are kind of off to me. Also the fact that he gets Power for Ranged Weapons too, when Unchained doesn’t from her Passive.
I’d at least suggest making his damage reduction and THP generation Passives, active. Meaning he only benefits from them for the time frame while hitting something. In my head his health is supposed to be spiking like crazy while he trades damage, but it just doesn’t happen like that as he tanks too much.
I think the issue is that “deal with it” as zealot just means playing like a complete idiot so you keep your stacks up anyway. Doesn’t just hurt the zealot player, but kind of everyone else because you need to be super reckless to keep your value.
That’s ignoring the type of “deal with it” comments that we’ve seen in this thread, which seem to just be contrarianism or ego stroking lol
It’s even worse when you can’t even see what classes are in a game to just avoid GK lobbies or something
I wasn’t meaning to dismiss any of those issues. I agree, and stated that I think it’s a serious issue that should be addressed. Was just trying to say that doesn’t justify anyone trying to pressure specific build choices in pugs by way of friendly fire, which OP’s various comments suggest he does.
definitely agree, worst case I might ask if they can swap off that talent but killing them or kicking people seems a bit insane, just take damage every few minutes and you’re generally alright.
No where did I say that I forced specific talent/class loadouts on other players. Don’t know where you are getting that from. If I spawn into the keep with a Waystalker then I ask if they are running Amaranthe, I ask them to change if they are, if they don’t I leave. If I join a game and the Grail Knight has the HP regen quest, I ask that we don’t get grims, if they refuse I leave. If I join a game with hp regen already going on, I leave.
I’m not going to stick around in any group that will force me to give up 30% attack power, 20% attack speed, and 90% healing effectiveness (needed for temp hp generation). That’s not a reasonable restriction to put on anyone, just so the team can have a bit of hp regen. So it can be argued that the hp regen isn’t for the good of the run when put next to all that the Zealot brings to the table without it.
Now if I’m hosting, that’s a different story, my options are limited there, so kicking becomes the only option other than disbanding the group. Joining a random group as a Waystalker, having Amaranthe is rather inconsiderate, as you don’t know what you are going into. You may see it as toxic, childish, whatever; but until we get dedicated servers it’s my server, my rules.
“Was just trying to say that doesn’t justify anyone trying to pressure specific build choices in pugs by way of friendly fire, which OP’s various comments suggest he does.”
No, I did not say that at all. I only friendly fire people who deliberately use Medkits on me, after I’ve already said not to heal me. It interrupts the heal, it’s the only way to stop it, because there is no way to tell them to stop before the heal is complete. If they somehow still manage to heal me or heal me while my focus is on something else, I’ll down them to red health. Call that toxic all you want.
That’s not a sustainable alternative in higher difficulties, the enemies hit too hard. Every time I have to lower my hp it has to be controlled or I’ll always have my Mortality on cooldown. Every time I get healed passed a stack break point, I have to then stop contributing to the team to lose all of my temp hp, before I can lose more green hp, and hope I don’t get put too low, then build it back up again. Even if it were feasible, it’s not a fun way to try to play.
Taking damage in order to receive a power boost is the Zealot’s gimmick. But he’s low risk high reward as is, just stop blocking, it’ll be the most risk this class has ever had in a long time.
GK regen will probably be deleted at some-point and aramanthine is already an awkward choice so most what zealot has to do atm is to wait for some patches at most.
Basically, what you are saying is that your choice of character and play style should dictate other player’s choices and play styles.
Personally, I don’t see why one of the first Zealot talent rows shouldn’t be “any healing received is temporary health, but it clears wounds”. But that would cramp your style in another way, right?
So I say “ask a Waystalker not to use Amaranthe, or ask a group not to pick up Grims because a Grail Knight has the team passive healing quest”
And you take “ask” as dictate? I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m not demanding talent choices of other players, I’m asking, and if they refuse I leave. The only dictating in this scenario is if you are going to passively heal me, you won’t be playing with me.
Regarding your second statement - That would be fine depending on which talent and if it would be a replacement talent or an addition to an existing talent. I think the most optimal, or rather best case scenario, would be to give Zealots their own trait on an item, like Sienna and Bardin have for Heat Management. Like on the neck, I would give up some temp health generation by not being able to use Boon of Shalya and instead would just be the effect healing yourself with Natural Bond has but without the green health generation over time. And honestly, everyone could use that neck piece if they wanted…whether or not it’s optimal for them to do so would be another discussion entirely, albeit a short discussion I’d imagine lol.
See my reply to LordGiggles above your post. And I’ve already addressed why Perteks’ comment is not right, and I’m not going to repeat myself, or feed that troll any more.
I did see your reply to Giggles and my first thought was about UC mains on Cata who play with 40~ effective HP within 1-shot range of ratties. They just deal with it and sometimes give up their 30% power boost for survivability. And they have way less tools for survival than Zealot.
This thread is asking for Zealot to get another buff he doesn’t need.
I don’t know if I agree with that really, can just use your avoid death to get stacks in the worst case. Or just play dumb and eat stabs as you go, in all QP type content it’s super doable. I’ve done it a bunch in cata.
Don’t think it’s really a buff, it’s just a sanity check to make pubs not annoying for people who play him.
If Zealot has a choice to opt out of green health or change the objectively best talent to prevent green health regeneration, it would definitely be a buff. It would be an effortless, riskless 30% permanent power boost. That’s just rewarding the class for existing at that point. It cuts out the need for health/power management entirely, which is pretty low as is.
Saying this under the assumption that GK’s hp regen duty will be nerfed very soon, btw. Even if it is wholly rng, with the right talent and Boon it’s insanely OP. Once that’s fixed the next problem will be HP regen talents like Lotus, NB, and GK duties still stacking, but that’s a problem for the whole game’s balance and not just a Zealot problem.
