Elf weapons are really good against everything - at least the top-tier ones.
It’s very competitive and I think Handmaiden trades only a smaaaall bit of melee versatility for extreme survivability and access to an extremely potent ranged weapon in the Longbow. And that’s only a small trade, as Dual Daggers can kill elites with the best of them, and Sword+Dagger is no slouch. You just get options; highest damage but highest risk in DD, balance in SD, and safest but lowest damage in Spear. Undoubtedly, though, in raw dps, she’s competitive - and both GK and Slayer have to physically hack through all enemies - Handmaiden’s DPS increases the more enemies are stacked.
…Well not all of them, and not unconditionally but yes, many are good against armor. However what they all have in common that none of them are good at dealing with multiple armored opponents at the same time except the spear and shield.
Which is locked to handmaiden.
(Yes i am aware that it´s possible for DD or 1hand sword elf to kite a “CW only” group for days but its less rare to get multiple stormvermin or bestigors.)
To illustrate, spear is a pretty excellent weapon for it is safe and does pretty good to flat out good damage against all enemy types. But it falls really flat at dealing with multiple stormvermin for instance.
Dual daggers? Second verse nearly the same as the first, weapon is amazing at dealing with all enemy types but only 1 or two at the time unless its a skaven chaff horde at which point anythings fine. But multiple stomvermin? You might kill 1 but then you are probably stuck just dodging and moving with little to no time spent attacking. If its a mixed party of stormvermin+normal mobs then you are really stuck in a bad spot.
Compare this to a 2handed hammer/shield that just smacks anything smaller than a Chaos warrior around and it looks really different.
Top tier ones being Dual daggers, SND, Spear and Spear&Shield. The thing in common across the first 3?They are amazing in a 1v1 or a 1v2, but more opponents than that, especially armored, and they struggle like hell.
Spear and Shield meanwhile is a bit unusual for being good against all enemy types and against multiple ones as well but it has low cleave which limits the ability to clear chaff speedily.
Only against unarmored, for elf in general sucks at dealing with multiple armored targets. 2 chaos warriors and chaff? To the elf this is a mortal challenge.
…Yes i am aware that only CW´s dont actually threaten the elf using daggers or even 1handed sword much given her mobility but she does stuggle way more when the CW´s have help. Meanwhile to the GK that same bad spot is merely a good time to use the ult. And for the slayer its simply a matter of using jump at the righ time to stagger them and then hack right through their armors in a frenzy before looking to crush a few more while the steam is running high.
Given that FS is experimenting with new gameplay mechanics on these careers, I’d like a Wardancer Kerillian that can switch between different dances on the fly. There are canon dances for fast speedy attacks, precise impactful attacks, evasion and whatnot. That would tie in perfectly as modifiers for any melee weapon she has access to and create a unique flow of combat where a skilled player could rapidly switch for the appropriate targets.
Pretty spot-on. Weapons aren’t as important as classes when it comes to damage potential in-game, besides weapons that offer strong control such as Flaming Flail or Billhook. For HM at least, even the presence of 2 SV has the potential to halt dps. The important ingredient here is control.
Strong dps classes have consistent ways to control armored mobs and berserkers. If you don’t have control, you cannot unleash your dps, no matter how good your weapon’s damage potential is. Weapons like Billhook and Flaming Flail/Flame Sword are strong because their weapon allows them to CC while dpsing, while other meta weapons usually have either high damage (DD) or high control (shields). Other than weapons, the more common form of control is career skills. GK does it with a 40 sec delete button, and swaps to a shield to control the targets. Slayer Crunches everything except CW overheads and the cd is very short if he’s consistently hitting targets.
They always joke the best form of CC is death and it’s true for vermintide as well. Shade is an example of this, and BH on legend as well, since he has the ability to oneshot everything. BH is an exemplary dps class on Legend. Since he’s able to safely delete armored threats and berserkers, the trash mobs cannot stop his dps. However, on Cata, he suffers since more elites spawn than he is able to handle, and he loses a lot of control.
This is why HM’s dps potential is not as high as GK or slayer’s, she simply doesn’t have the control or killing power.
Does anyone have any thoughts on increasing the reach of Dual Daggers while decreasing their bodyshot damage (keeping the headshot damage the same)? This would make them more like the Rapier I suppose, but I think so in a good way that lets them pick out targets with less dependence on other players/stealth to deal damage.
You’re absolutely right, but this is why you have to use Bladedancer - it clears out the chaff. Without Bladedancer, she’s fairly low damage. And turning mixed hordes into just some elites is a big deal.
We’re just going in circles - yeah, they’re all good DPS classes, but at slightly different things. If you were bringing a single DPS she’d not be the best pick, but she’d be great alongside Slayer or Grail Knight if you want two DPS. As I’ve said all along “she’s only slightly behind” and a viable pick.
Oh, hey Velsix - was just watching one of your videos!
I’m not sure about the dagger idea from a balance standpoint - but that might impinge the identity of the weapon a lot. For giving elf more anti-armor options, though, I think that might be really needed is just some buffs for the Glaive. We’ve known when it’s been too strong, and we’ve known when it’s been too weak - surely there’s a middle point between these two that will let it fill its role and also be balanced? I can’t make any concrete suggestions, as I’ve never been a huge fan.
That said, I think there’s a big problem with giving elf another DPS class - all her classes are DPS classes (or can be with the right build). What would War Dancer offer? A big burst damage? Shade. Mobility? Handmaiden. Surely not ranged. And ult aside, what could give her the oomph in melee that she lacks? Firstly, a big chonky weapon doesn’t fit her, and most of the options are already taken. She’s already got about every melee weapon that the Asrai use, the only other elf-themed big weapon would be something like a Phoenix Guard halberd (which I doubt she’d get). I’ve wracked my brain and the only new melee weapon I could see her getting would be something Druchii themed, like a saber and hand crossbow, akin to the Rapier and Pistol of Saltzpyre.
So a more support-oriented caster is the most logical choice to me - and incidentally, she has more unexplored ranged options, like an Averlorn Bow or an Asrai Javelin. Those don’t fit a caster, but Chaos Wastes may bring one of those for her. As a caster she could use Lore of Life spells with some kind of buffing ult - or even summon a Dryad or something.
The missing 4th type of career skill – a circular area shout/taunt type of ability. How you should flavor the ability and what specific buffs it should give are questions with a pretty large range of possible answers. As for career weapons, Wardancers make a Spear and Sword combo look cool:
Combining the slashing strikes of the sword with the range of the spear is a potentially unique combination. Wardancer would be another candidate for using Spear and Shield, too, which is a plus in my book. Thrown javelins would also suit them fine.
I’m down with Spellsinger, too, but I just wonder about the feasibility of adding an entirely new casting mechanic. Only Fatshark know how much work would be involved.
Nice! I’ve got a Shade DD true solo with Cloak of Mists but without Vanish coming up soon (mentioning it since it’s relevant to the thread). What I noted during the run was that DD felt very stealth dependent for heavies vs hordes, otherwise I was just light spamming which was effective but didn’t always feel great. This contrasts poorly with WHC + Rapier & Deathknell imo, where mixing in heavies is rewarding and possible under pressure. I’ll have to see how DD fairs under max attack speed Handmaiden (I think reach may still be an issue).
I was worried about its identity as well. It would affect Shade’s backstabs too which could have bad effects (would depend on the exact damage change). I guess I’m a bit too used to the Rapier’s reach, how well it operates under pressure and how good it is at picking out targets while kiting. I’d like an alternative too it haha.
Yeah I’ve never been a fan of the Glaive either. It’s in a weird spot right now - on paper it’s got a great single target dps heavy chain and good chip damage, but it has no access to a decent level of medium armour damage (it’s either chip from lights or big damage from the vulnerable heavies). It also lacks reach for a 2h. I’d compare the Glaive to the Falchion. The Glaive has slightly more cleave but it barely matters because they both already cleave unstaggered Marauders. Similar reach. The Falchion deals with shields more effectively, since both heavies and L3 break them, has 1 more dodge and 25% more dodge range, and has access to combined chip (lights 1 & 2) and medium armour damage (L3). Yet the Falchion isn’t op. The only thing Glaive comes out on top against is CWs. So buffs, like increasing the headshot damage of the lights vs armour and maybe throwing the Tank modifier into the weapon’s moveset somewhere could be appropriate (it’s comparable to the Exec which gets the Tank modifier on all lights except its push attack which gets Linesmen).
A hand crossbow would be awesome! Maybe even dual wield.
We’re also lacking a full movement speed kit like Slayer, Zealot and GK have. I imagine a Spear and Sword (too many weapons in this game are called S&S lol) wouldn’t being higher dodge range than a spear, so movement speed may be an interesting way to offset that (I don’t know a lot about Wardancers but they look like they would move around the battlefield quickly).
Yeah it’s an effort thing I think. I’d love a new wind for Sienna but for the same reason I don’t think it’s likely. Who knows though, I was certain we were going to get a Runesmith/Priest but Fatshark surprised me by going for a flashier idea.
Spear and Sword would be really weird, with some attacks having reach and others not . . . but it could work, really. Or maybe a two-ended spear - still, though, I’m not sure how these would work in making War Dancer anything more than another fast blender in melee, as opposed to something that can bully and annihilate clustered armor. Maybe if she had a special dance for anti-armor, but presumably that would trade anti-horde damage for better AP.
I dunno how hard it would be to make a new lore effect - it wouldn’t have to have all new effects after all, she could still just explode if she overcharged - but since Bardin can also use overheat weapons, it seems that it’s not something just inherent to Sienna’s class.