Helbore main, AMA.
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Youâve gotten your answer 14 times over, but to add to it further.
Arbite has the dog, which means (while itâs a bit delayed at time), you donât need to utilize ammo/as much ammo dealing with specialists, they just passively die around you. This makes the one main job Vet had before besides being an ammo passive completely moot, as youâre better off having an Arbite as they can both deal with such high priority enemies with the dog (focusing them and killing them even better for a talent point), AND with their own weaponry.
Place on top of all that they have more regen/more ways to regen toughness than veteran and have the privilege (like everyone else) of getting hit and still keeping their regen, have VASTLY more DR, more HP, a ânot todayâ talent node made exclusively for havoc that prevents 1âshots from any source (canât lose more than 50 HP at a time), and infinitely better (after the rework) Tactical Awarness if you decide to take Execution Order (which you more often than not do, or just decide you donât need it and take Forceful instead and become immortal regardless of if your Castigators is up or not).
Include what everyone else has said here.
Arbite is just Veteran and Zealot smashed together, but while Zealot keeps their status by still having very good consistent ways to keep their CDR up, so their Golden Toughness continues to matter on top of having relatively equivalent DR (when built right) and the âdo overâ button even if they do F up every 2 minutes (Until Death) (on top of still being monsters in melee/pretty dang fast). Veteran had âtheir jobâ functionally removed by a class that can do it easier, safer, and being WAY more forgiving, while saving all of their ammo for the real threats so you still have a functional Survivalist going since your team doesnât often have to fire a shot except against Ogryns/Monstrosities. Tac onto that the fact the dog grenade regens itself and you can take lone wolf to regen the other two, and Veteran sits there crying (quite literally, their purpose is a shout cooldown they have to try VERY hard not to constantly be dropping) while Arbite takes all of their lunch money while they are kneeling over on their hands and knees.
It should be rather telling Veteran had to take talents from Arbite (the clip size increase is mainly what Iâm referring too), and yet still they donât really do anything Arbite just doesnât do better. The only thing they can do uniquely/most effectively is stand there yelling with Survivalist equipped, otherwise they are outclassed in every way. Instead of nerfing Shout they decided âbreak their bones every other possible wayâ, so they donât get toughness regen without earning it (unlike everyone else), they donât get DR without earning it (unlike everyone else), they donât get CDR without forever laser focusing on specifically specialists and having ONLY THEM get the kill (unlike everyone else), and their only trade off is dropping a monstrosity slightly faster. Itâs insanely depressing. And with Arbite being the paid class I donât expect it to change unfortunately.
(this all being said, this doesnât mean you canât have fun on Veteran, they still do comparable damage to everyone else, you just have to play perfectly to do the same thing everyone else does for breathing, so thatâs where the main âmade the Veteran Uselessâ comes into play. Why EVER pick veteran, when Psyker clears waves better from range for free and safer, Zealot is better in melee, and Arbite is just as good as you while being just as tough as an Ogryn and has a dog. for fun doesnât often cut it when you spend half the match on the floor).
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Grey Knights are known to be overly zealous in trying to keep daemons and their own existence a secret. They regularly execute laymen that see them, non-inquisitorial forces that they work with, and telepathically mind-wipe Space Marine allies. They kinda stopped doing this since the Cicatrix Maledictum opened up s they realized theyâd be executing enough people to put an actual dent in the Imperiumâs population.
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Mostly outside of what @CH3DD4R_G0B-L1N reminded me of, this is some of the stuff that I canât say I understand still overall.
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The dog doesnât just effect Vets on the team by taking away a potential specialist kill though, especially when at higher difficulties the AI director constantly vomits them at you. On top of which, you can still shoot/bonk a pinned special and take the kill yourself if itâs that important, e.g. itâs somehow the only potential Tactical Awareness proc available at the time.
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So this is just an issue with Veteran at base then, and not the Arbitrator uniquely dunking on Vet? Ogryns and Zealots also fit this criteria.
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Thatâs just a unique DR passive on a class. What does that have to do with Vet specifically?
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The TA vs EO is somewhat understandable, I guess FS thinking is that because TA is just a node on the tree, itâs more universal for builds as opposed to sacrificing a keystone slot? Idk.
As Cheddar said, I can see why Vets might be a bit miffed with the secondary CS nodes that buff ranged. Personally Iâve never liked the abilityâs design either way.
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Job as in Special & Ranged killing? If thatâs what you mean, Iâm inclined to disagree. While the Dogâs TTK can be quite quick if built for it, there are still (usually) far too many targets to let it solo one at a time, while stuff like the Plasma gun still exists for these purposes. If anything, surely the dog lessening the weight on the Vet allows Survivalist to stretch even further in limited ammo situations like Havoc?
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Yeah the Dog bomb can be really good, but surely if the player has sent the dog off to deal with Specials and Ranged âtaking away the Vetâs jobâ, then how can the dog bomb at that moment be used in the same manner of knocking everything away around you, in a similar manner to Shout, if thatâs what youâre referring to here?
Pocket Smyker is definitely another thing they need to look at and yes itâs only exacerbated by Lone Wolf giving you 3 plus regen, but of course, that gets rid of the dog. So in that case, do Vets get their job back?
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I really canât say I feel the same way; Tactical Awarenessâ proc limitations (only the Vet themself) is the only thing Iâd agree on.
As for this though:
they donât get DR without earning it (unlike everyone else)
I mean Close Order Drill & Iron Will Exist 
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I canât say Iâve ever really had that issue, nor been forced to âplay perfectly to do the same thing as everyone else does for breathingâ.
Ah well, different strokes, different folks.
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Grey Knights are cool and jerks at same time.
I find itâs also likely heavily dependent on the type of Veteran one liked/likes to be, which in turn is likely why this topic is so divisive/polarizing. If one deeply enjoys the Veteran as strictly a gunner, then a lot of what I bring up is likely a moot point, but Iâm âone of the weirdosâ that enjoyed dipping my toes into the right side of the tree and just going ham with a power sword/heavy sword sometimes and a revolver, and after the release of arbite/the update to the talent trees, it just feels like âI have to work 3 times as hard to not fall over as everyone else does for standing stillâ, made worse by the fact that the only thing that made it viable (spamming shout every 3-8 seconds, or even Invisibility every 10-15) was completely removed with no recompense. âMelee veteranâ is essentially dead, and I enjoyed veteran as a âcombo fighterâ that swapped between melee and range, and that got completely neutered/essentially removed as every class does it better than them. Youâre either a gunner glued behind your team to keep all your bonuses intact, or dead, nobody else has that restriction, not even the Psyker anymore, and that is truly where my personal issue lies (but this topic was brought up in reference to Arbite so I pointed it in there general direction as they donât help either). I made a whole long post about it my miss givings in that direction though that got liked by the vet mains then buried by the gunner mains so you can look up âdo fatshark hate veterans?â or something to that effect if you want my full ârantâ with itâs relation to Psyker/the rest of the classes XD.
BUT, to your points (paraphrasing with the quotes but I read it all):
While yes, thereâs a constant stream of âfilthâ these days especially in Auric and up, Veteran is the only class now with the unique âprivilegeâ of kill steals blatantly fing them over. Bleed, psyker blue flame, a large bodied Ogryn standing in front of them and bashing their target to death, or in this example, a dog pouncing an otherwise eye level specialist to the ground and keeping them below the line of poxwalkers so you can no longer get a clear shot on them while they kill it, all makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to get your CDR going. I wouldnât be âbutt hurtâ, if the others also needed to care (like how Psykinetic aura used to work so the kill stealing made sense), but now Bruiser is team wide, said Psykinetic aura is team wide, Zealot continues to ignore the problem entirely/get their own CDR for hitting things, and Arbite, the only direct comparison with their Execution Order still needing to get the kill, passively gets it with their dog and has the privilege of it lasting 8 seconds where as Veteran gets a measly 3. Again, one can just pivot to the next specialist more often than not, but there are the rarefied few times where it was like, 3 specialists and just a LOT of poxwalkers. And itâs those times, when all three get dropped in a fraction of a second by your team, that you go âwhy the F%@k do I need to be the one that gets the kill anymore when nobody else needs to/needs to as frequently?â.
Yes, Psyker too now, as with the 3 DR talents they received and the even MORE ways to get passive toughness regen over time, they went from âglass cannonâ to âcannonâ . This is mostly a âeveryone moved up to match Ogy and Arbe and Veteran stayed putâ kinda issue.
Just mainly pointing out the level of forgiveness on the Arbite while doing the job of Veteran cleaner, everyone gets their respective DR for certain, but Veteran is now the only one that doesnât get HP DR, and it shows if you play across the other classes (mainly Psyker, who used to âmake veteran feel ok because at least Iâm not AS squishy to multiple hits as they areâ, but now they can tank bursters without really caring while Veterans literally become unplayable the moment their toughness goes below 75%, and itâs like but why? they arenât even trained!).
Yeah, that I think is the main âcruxâ of it. And once again, Arbe (yes itâs a keystone but still), gets the CDR for 8 seconds after securing a kill on a specialist OR ELITE, Vetâs only get it with specialists and only for 3 seconds. Itâs insanely telling just how much they donât want shout to seem broken, but like, you nuked the rest of his playstyles for this, whyyyyyyy. Do think Arbe getting ranged buffs shouldnât have been a thing either, as that encroaches way to much on Veteran, but itâs a bit late now (and they wanted to push the new shotgun for them, I get that, but itâs still bad when a left side Arbe that dips into the middle and right for DR and toughness gen just does the same amount of damage as a Veteran who has to âbe squishyâ for the same amount).
Yes, main point is that the Arbe gets to shoot/melee AND has a dog that does the killing for him. It isnât just âohh just the dog invalidates Veteranâ, as that flat out isnât true for sure. But its both of them in combination that does it, the dog functions as a â.5xâ to the arbites ability to deal with these targets, and lets the Arbite also clear out melee range targets while the long range get âannoyedâ until he can also personally deal with them with his boltgun/boltpistol. Veteran has to choose, inherently weakening his purpose (though of course, survivalist will always make sure heâs forced onto every team, another aura that I think should just become a reject wide passive so Veteran is allowed to âhave funâ again, but thatâs a digression really).
Ohh that wasnât really in reference to anything specific outside of âArbite gets to regen all his grenades like the Veteran canâ, though of course the one other thing Veteran has the privilege of doing now is sometimes winning the lottery and getting multiple procs of Demo team in a fight. But if you want a direct comparison, Arbite shield âelectric slamâ is essentially a wave stun with no cooldown/just requires blocking to âchargeâ, so while the dog is exploding on the gunner line likely dropping them all, the arbite is busy slapping his metal slap and suppressing the rest of the wave. And if youâre feeling super spicy, Break the Line knocks everything over, including Oggies, on a 7-10 second cooldown (or 15 with no Executioners, just like shout but you have to work for it! : D). Tesla grenade was an absolute mistake though, glad we âagreeâ on that XD. But again, while yes the dog goes away in that instance, the wave is stunned, so the arbite can freely just shoot at everything with literally nothing to stop him, while the Veteran can not do that (without an arbite with him doing the stunning). If you use the impact grenade though then yes Veteran âgets his job backâ XD (which is why you see nobody using it).
Yeah, both have stipulations. Close Order Drill needs your team mates not to âwander offâ (which is an increasing issue as it always is as the player base dwindles between updates), Iron Will requires you be above 75% toughness. At 74% toughness alone because your team mates fell over or âwent left and you went right to get ammo oopsâ, you have 0% DR, no toughness DR no HP DR no nothing. Meanwhile every other class has 10-20% toughness DR shoved down their throats as required/easily accessible nodes on their tree (the only 10% DR on veteran is 17 nodes deep /should probably be swapped with the stamina node tbh or something), on top of that (in reference to ânodes that give you DR for breathing, especially for oneâs full health bar/toughness bar):
Arbite: 7.5% TDR as a personal aura to themselves (while not ever needing to be in coherency cause dog), 20% for a dog kill and/or for hitting 3 enemies, 15% if they take lone wolf (so even if they donât take the dog aura, they still get DR), up to 15% Full melee DR (meaning effects health) for staggering enemies, and Forceful for more Full DR if youâre really feeling it, ohh, and True Grit for health on top of all that.
Zealot: 25% Full DR for a successful dodge, 15% toughness DR from an Aura (which the veteran can benefit from yes, but again he needs the zealot, not the other way around), 40% toughness DR on crit, Blazing Piety/Inexorable Judgement giving toughness regen, and Piety/Martyr giving toughness DR (with Martyr now giving full benifit at 2 wounds/requiring one less wound curio AND being buffed/stronger in the DR department). Until Death and Bleed for the Emperor as âvery honorable mentionsâ.
Ogryn: Innate passive for 25% Full DR because size, 12.5% Full DR for being above 75% stamina (I count this because of Slam), 20% Full DR from ranged, up to 32% Full DR per bleeding enemy near you, 10% Toughness DR from heavy hitter, 30% Full DR from Feel no pain, or 25% Full DR for bracing your gun.
Psyker: 10% Full DR because, up to 33% TDR based on Peril, 25% Full DR/converting damage into Peril (which can then be quelled off for toughness/the act of creating the peril gives toughness).
So, I say again, they donât get DR without constantly earning it, unlike all of the above, with even Psyker getting to play with their entire health and toughness bar now, while Veteran just gets to play with at most 68 toughness. or can last a bit longer if his entire team is alive and around him. Which guess what? so can everyone else, much better than him in fact, while also being able to function/clutch up on their own if need be.
I envy the teams you get placed with then, and end this whole âresponse essayâ with a Iâm glad you are having fun with him still. All this at the end of the day is me just throwing out numbers and personal experience, if you still make him work to your satisfaction thatâs great! as you say âdifferent strokes for different folksâ, I am just âyelling at cloudsâ because the way I liked to play veteran was essentially removed, and I donât like that, especially with Psyker getting more tools to let them function in melee stares at Scriers forever getting buffed because reasons while Veteran languishes as âthe guy thatâs glued to their gun and isnât even the outright best at doing that anymoreâ. While I donât necessarily want Arbite level forgiveness on the guy, if the Psyker gets to âhave his warp cake and eat it tooâ, why canât the Veteran? he, again, is the actually trained one!
Thank you for coming to my ted talk regardless/actually responding to my points though, I appreciate getting an actual discussion on here verses just ânu uhhâ with no follow up thrown at my face 15 times XD (like whatâs happening to the poor thread Urka made linking to this, you tried man, I tried to and got a similar response XD). Was nice getting to clarify more verses just literally having nothing to say since nothing was actually said to the contrary of my points. Appreciate it!
finally gets off soap box
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Iâm confused on the âmelee vet is deadâ when heâs still the best knife and DS user of them all
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Try to kill a bulwark with a knife.
kraks, shout
They are not unlimited!
If youâre playing vet yes they are as long as you donât use it against every single crusher
But in Auric there are a lot.
Bulwark gets ramshackled by knife the unyielding damage is insane. Now walls of healing bulwarks yeah but havoc is garbage and letâs not focus on it. And knife has way too oppressive heavy attack speeds so you can carve his fat face up with like 3 during that opening after he attacks once.
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I changed my knifed build, today.
I hope it works better now.
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Whatâs the new build?
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Just run Uncanny+Mercy Killer with that one bleed talent if you want the ultimate knife vet.
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