Expanding rewards and crafting in "endgame" content in the game

The current offer we have as endgame is “increase difficulty endlessly for the sake of it” - what feels like a stick all the way, with no carrot at all. Or paying for good job with more job; however humorous and true to the source it may be, it’s not really encouraging, for many players. Especially comparing it to the thrill of initial new player experience, when you constantly get something for your efforts during a mission, new weapons, blessings, talents etc - and then you are left out to dry after that, with nothing except a few abstract numbers increasing to hope for. I don’t think this is good enough to attract more players to modes like Havoc, or even Auric, on itself.

Another problem that needs (imo) to be addressed is a feel of “staleness” you get after initial development is done. You play a mission after a mission, and it feels as you got nothing from it. May be, if you play Havoc, you see clearance level increasing - but that’s it. And if you don’t progress even this metric, it just gives you the Groundhog Day’s feels :slight_smile: Let’s be honest: most people are not that good, and at some point they’ll just hit their plato in terms of skill - and they may never actually improve past that point. It would be great to still give them some long-term goals which they are guaranteed to reach (like upgrading their equipment to its maximum) - or they’ll just lose interest quickly. It even looks ridiculous now, like, I have 200 hours in the game, and have 1.5m credits and 15k diamantine just sitting there, as there is nothing to spend it on. Players always should have something they just can slowly grind for, even if it gives you very little advantage, like +5% of damage over 6 month of upgrading your main weapons - it’s still something.

Below are some ideas that could increase players’ retention and popularity for those modes with extra difficulty.

I. New gear grades.

The most obvious addition. Starting from Damnation, you should be able to acquire gear with higher stats and better perks and bonuses than Transcendent limited to 80 in its stats. Here is how it could look like:

  1. For weapons, max stats could go up to 100 - but only for one or may be two of the stats. Curios would have greater base bonus, and one extra perk slot and/or greater per-perk bonusses

  2. You would start seeing such equipment dropped on Damnation already, but with a much lower chance. Would be way more frequent in Auric, and pretty mundane in Havoc. Max stats for weapons dropped in Damnation and Auric would be limited by 90 still, in Havoc it would go up to 100, with much better weapons and curios dropped at higher difficulties there

  3. If a character with such endgame equipment decides to play missions below its intended difficulty levels, its bonuses and stats are scaled down/capped to prevent powercreep being imported there

II. Advanced crafting system

  1. Mainly you just, as before, can Empower the new weapons mentioned above, paying with Diamantine and Credits. But stat increase for such weapons should proceed with much lower increments and cost substantial amount of resources (increasing drastically the closer you get to the max values) - to give players long-term goals for a couple years at least (calculated as “time needed to gather a few sets of primary and secondary fully maxed out weapons per each base class”)

  2. You can also now Empower higher grade Curios, increasing their base bonus and unlocking perks of tiers higher than current 4th, with better bonuses (even if just slightly better)

  3. Sacrifice weapon feature now works differently (as you can’t use it for Mastery boost as before, we need a new purpose for it, at that point):

    • First of all, you can use it by setting a checkbox during regular Empowerment action to slightly enhance increase to the stats you get (tech priests will disassemble it and will use its parts for enhancing your main weapon). As always, it will increase all current stats at once for the same amount
    • By using it separately, you can try your luck and improve stats of some your other weapon disproportionally. It’s a pure RNG, and by sacrificing enough high-grade weapons (the ones you can’t buy, but only can get as reward by playing in Auric or Havoc) you may see substantial increase in two of its stats chosen randomly - but as well as substantial decrease in another one stat. Whether it will be the current values or the max stats values - you choose yourself, before going for it. Some general limitations still should apply to how much you can tweak your weapon this way
    • Similar mechanics should be implemented for Curios as well

III. New gear type: auxiliary items

On your character’s Loadout screen you’ll now have one extra slot for a single “powerup” auxiliary item you can take into missions (which you can easily change if needed on the squad overview screen). Those items can be collected as a reward for completing secondary objectives during endgame missions (which hopefully will one day come in much more varieties than “Find the scriptures”, like it could be “Kill all daemon hosts”, “Destroy all idols”, “Collect some samples”, “Collect additional data during planned Data Interrogation” (requires one more teammate to do the same minigame at the same time with the one advancing the main task) etc). If secondary objective is completed fully, every player gets a random drop of one auxiliary item. If it’s completed partially, the base chance of 100% is scaled down proportionally (“the dice” is still rolled for whole squad at once, either all get the items, or nobody does). If an item is used during a mission (even if just one charge of many is used), it’s removed from your inventory, otherwise you keep it and can carry into the next one. Some of the items may be used several times per mission (by different players), while others can only be used once (by any player).

Some examples of the items:

  • Airdrop of Portable Medicae Station for all teammates to use; once per all per mission
  • Airdrop of special ammo crate that restores both ammo and grenades, for all teammates; once per all per mission
  • Airdrop of crate with all 4 types of stims (1 of each), for all teammates; once per all per mission
  • Insta-revival stim (1 charge), to instantly get adjacent teammate out the downed state; multiple use, but once per player
  • Self-revival implant (1 charge) - if you choose so, can get you out the downed state once per mission; multiple use, but once per player
  • Fire extinguisher (1-3 charges, depending on grade, 30s cooldown) - instantly removes both yours and enemy fire surfaces of any kind in a small radius; multiple use, but once per player (until charges are depleted)
  • Scout servoskull (1-3 charges, depending on grade, 30s cooldown) - follows you while hovering above your head, lighting up the environment (to help navigating in dark areas), for a minute; additionally, will every 10 seconds tag all normal pickups (ammo, stims, resources) in a certain radius, even those hidden inside crates, for the whole squad; multiple use, but once per player (until charges are depleted), and only one can be active at a time
  • Universal chain feed (1-3 charges, depending on grade, 15s cooldown) - if activated, for 15 seconds your range weapon draws ammo directly from your spare ammo, bypassing its clip.
  • “Reptilian brain” implant (1-3 charges, depending on grade; 15s cooldown between charges) - upon receiving a melee damage that would otherwise send you into downed state, a charge is spent and your character is considered dodging the blow instead

Chance to get a drop of any particular item in the list depends on how powerful it’s considered to be, the more powerful the lower the chance (additionally adjusted by level of difficulty you play at, the higher you go, the higher the chance of more powerful items). The chances should be set in such way players would not be able to accumulate too much of those, and would have to use them sparingly. Additionally, some maximum caps could be set for amount of those items one can store in their inventory, to prevent farming and stockpiling them for future use.

P.S.

IV. Addressing the powercreep created by everything above

As was pointed out in the discussion below, if implemented, these ideas will decrease amount of challenge one can get in the difficulty levels affected by it. That’s a fair argument, and needs to be addressed separately.

Though simply adding a dozen or two of clearance levels on the top of currently existing 40 is always an option, something more neat can be done here:

  1. Adjust challenge level of the lowest 10-15 Havoc’s clearance levels to feel about the same as Auric does (so starting easier than Auric at clearance lv1 and ending somewhat harder at clearance lv10). This makes learning curve less steeper and allow people to learn new Havoc-specific mechanics in a calmer environment
  2. In Damantion and Auric, adjust rewards and drop rates that one will require to acquire and upgrade the equipment of higher grades so that it would take unreasonable amount of time to assemble a selection of fully maxxed out sets
  3. Significantly increase the rewards and drop rates one can get in Havoc, starting from its lowest clearance levels already
  4. To compensate for the added powercreep, add 10-15 more clearance levels on top of current 40

This way, after players getting a taste of the new equipment in “vanilla” game, they’ll be naturally lured into Havoc by the urge of getting more of it and upgrading it to the max levels. Lowered entrance bar ensures a smoother transition and gives people opportunity to take a breath and adjust to the new environment. Challenge level in Damnation and Auric will drop somewhat due to more powerful weapons now available, but as people will now have a full new mode to explore, it should compensate for that. Thus it creates a transparent bridge between “vanilla” game and the “endgame” content.

Most of the newcomers will probably forever stay in the lower clearance levels, being satisfied with grind for new shinies and a bit of additional challenge. To prevent too much burden on the more dedicated players of the mode which will have to deal with an influx of (potentially) less prepared players in Havoc, some additional Penances could be added that would serve as “Proof of kill” kind of token (a term from MMORPG world, usually an item or achivemen(s) you can get by clearing (repeatedly) endgame content), showing they are capable of surviving higher difficulty levels. Those Penances then could be made visible on the squad review screen when game is setup for Havoc mode - so that people could make an educated decision on whether or not this player is up to the challenge their squad plans to face.

At the same time, extra clearance levels added on top compensate for the powercreep we add with the new stuff, ensuring that there is still a room to grow for those seeking more challenge.

while commendable based on the amount of energy put into this, for me it’d be a hard “no”

darktide is one of these “endless” games that either thrives on gameplay for people, or it doesnt.

but items ever decreasing the difficulty, no matter how marginal (be it bonus whatever or >80%weapons), decrease the overall experience in the end, not add to it.

people shouldnt be “attracted” to higher difficulties in hopes of rewards, but based on their skill and wish to improve themselves.

other way round would flood the mode with sandbags looking for a carry, just eyes on the “prize”, not contributing anything to the combined effort of the team.

what is it nowadays with “rewards” anyways?

back in the day we competed in quake/unreal to improve ourselves over 10k hours and more in the same maps with the same weapons over and over and had fun by playing the game :man_shrugging:

graphics are great, sound’s impressive, gameplay is bar none… what incentive do i need to “play” darktide ?

uhm… no.
first 30 lvls are the tutorial and when you finally got access to every weapon you can start thinking about proper builds and how to grow as a player.

thats the “reward”

+10% on a weapon aint gonna increase the game’s experience for the better in my opinion.

5 Likes

Man, this, so much. What happened to gameplay just being enjoyable?

If we started adding better gear tied to Havocs, you’d quickly have people complaining that “Havoc is too hard”.

5 Likes

not only that, it’d be chicken/egg in reverse.
first they need a carry through havoc to get the gear to have an easier havoc :man_shrugging:

instead of having a good look in the mirror in search of the real “deficit”, ironically having no business in havoc in the first place…

2 Likes

That’s debatable. Let’s take the current state of Havoc, with absolute minority of playerbase playing it. Let’s assume it’s 5% (according to the Steam achievements, only 8% of players have leveled up all 4 base classes to 30lv, I don’t think those who haven’t play Havoc that much, and even those who had, may still not play it, preferring Auric or chill runs on Heresy; so 5% is a good estimate).

Now we introduced some powercreep to it, and due to this attracted more players into Havoc, lowering its difficulty somewhat. You can even say we turned its lower clearance levels into some newbie pond and extended tutorial if you wish. And by doing so we did some good by providing a bunch of active players new goals and new excitement (what is a good thing if we remember that those people need to stay around to finance the project so that the top players could play it as well) - and if we are concerned about lowering the difficulty bar, all we need to do is to add 10 more clearance levels on top. What’s the problem here?

It’s more about allowing them to “advance” somewhere - by giving them more incentive to do so, not just saying “hey, you’ll be beaten harder there, that’s it”. It’s about them, not about making something for you personally, as for you what you get there is already enough, clearly.

Well, a lot of thing happened “back in the days” which are not happening now; a lot has changed since then. That’s just how it is, and not accounting and not aligning with audience’s expectations ruins both companies and whole countries, at some point.

Whether carry them or not is up to you, ain’t it? And before looking down on all those people, I would suggest you to think about how big sport industry functions. Basically, to have a worldclass athlete at some point you need to enlist tens of thousands of teenagers as early as possible - 90% of which will never become professional athletes, and most of the rest will never be anything close to famous anyway. But you still need all those people so that you could have that one special guy in the end. No those people - nobody to send to the Olympics.

As of now, it’s widely recognized there are distinctive varieties of players. Usually this classification is used for mmorpg that usually allows higher varieties of activities than session mmos like DT. Yet, surveys clearly show that some people enjoy killing stuff much more than anything else, while other like to explore, and another like to achieve and collect. And normally, it’s considered a good practice to provide something for every such category, as long as it doesn’t break the core principles of the game too much. Again, from the standpoint of commercial success of the project which is required for us all to still play the game in years to come.

I still can’t get rid of the feels of dejavu, of all previous debates with generalized “raiding community” in different mmorpgs. The problem they usually face is most people give it a wide birth due to a steep learning and skill curve, kinda elitist (so off-putting to many) behavior of the core its community and organization problem when you often need to gather a lot of people in one place to even try it.

As few people play such content, developers usually put it to the bottom of their priorities list and focus on what majority of their audience would appreciate - resulting in a lot of drama and constant complaints that “devs don’t respect raiding community”. While at the same time, when all those issues above are pointed out, and suggestion like creating additional easy entry-level modes for raid content are made, it’s met with fierce rejection. Thus the problem never gets really solved :slight_smile:

May be there is some lesson to be learnt here.

so basically we end where we started cause the added 10 clearance levels arent accessible to “the public” and repeat the process ?

havoc isnt meant for the broad audience, these folks got everything below as a playground.

as much as i’ll never stand on the mr olympia stage, no matter the amount of roids i’ll inject, most people wont clear havoc 40 as an “active contributer”

and THATS what the ultimate goal of any difficulty hierarchy should be, be a better YOU, not have better items.

to what end?
they frustrate those having to carry em, while i wager it aint a pleasant experience being face down every 5 meters…

access to highest difficulty is earned, not demanded.

no, you need an audience to make money.
if no one pays to watch your stuff, its worthless. simple as.

BUT , top class athletes are a different build.
burning desire in their heart to compete, excell and at some point be the worlds best, they literally accept death while pursuing their goal.

look at how many mr. olympia died recently.
does the average joe at the gym count in this process? nope.

every and each legend on this stage is training for HIS goal and doesnt give a flying fkk about the audience or world around him.

THATS dedication… and lacking in 99% in the human populace.

no, those with the “call” dont need to be recruited, they dedicate their existance to their performance and apply for the contest.

“obstacles”

thats the moment when you clench your buttcheeks, saddle up and either improve or die trying :smile:

1 Like

See? You’re getting it. Yes, it’s an illusion, and a sense of progress for those who can’t really progress (for various reasons) through skill - and a pond from where more people will rise to the next levels. For now, a huge progress would be to just make them give it a try, using whatever can lure them into it.

We are getting back to the “raid community’s conundrum”. You don’t have wide audience - you’ll forever be disregarded by the devs, and be pointlessly complaining about it on forums while they’ll be releasing paid classes DLCs which everybody can enjoy by just paying them money. It’s funny, but lowering the entry threshold benefits you (the core Havoc community) more than anybody else.

As mentioned, for huge amount of people it simply won’t work the way you imagine. In a nutshell, it limited both by time they can contribute and their bodily limitations (yes, they still apply in cybersports). There are even studies which prove the later in the field of physical fitness (that people are made so different that same amount of training may lead to up to 4x difference in gains). Many people won’t be able to progress past a certain point, often simply because they don’t want to contribute more than x hours a week to a game (not even THE game, for them). Then they are stuck, have no goals to move to, and they lose interest, and FS loses a paying customer.

In mmorpgs’ raiding community it’s solved with something called “proof of kill”. It’s basically a token that proves you’ve successfully completed that and that much completions of certain boss or content. Introducing something like this (like a Penance that you could make visible to others) could serve as proof you’re competent at playing at a certain difficulty in Havoc. Then the ball would be in your court, whether or not to accept them in your squad.

But we are not making legends here, it’s just a game, people play it to pass some time, it needs to be enjoyable to enough number of people to pay its bills and generate profits, for FS to still keep maintaining and expanding it, and Havoc mode in particular. In this context we can’t assume people will be “toughen up and fight for it”, no they absolutely won’t. Some will try for some time, just for the new experience, will find it’s pretty dry and uneventful, and will lose interest. The best we can hope for is to invite more people in there, from which a small percentage will stay and move to the harder difficulties there, and majority just will stay on lower clearance levels for the grind of new shinning stuff, still having some enjoyment in the next few years, while buying DLCs and premium stuff from the store, financing the whole thing.

You understand that I have to do it, right? :smiley:
OK, BOOMER :smiley:

their “illusion” ends at auric maelstrom, or earlier, and hopefully “reality” sets in at some point.

if they aint got the skill, what are they doing in highest difficulty?

can i jump into the ring with mike tyson cause i bought a ticket?

this is called a reality check, and it seems dearly needed in todays times.

what is it with the “everyone can do everything” nonsense?

some dont have what it takes, it aint the end of the world :person_shrugging:

people should play at difficulties matching their abilities :thumb:

a badass one, you bet.
all good here :smile:

little insight, ending the “we wont see eye to eye on this” :

getting chemo therapy twice a week right now, sitting 5 hours in a chair getting multiple IV’s

what do you think i remember of the past?
the cracked ribs and torn deltoids, or pushing past 180lbs at 6% body fat at my peak?

(not spectacular but coming from 120lbs scrawny its been "huge ")

the chipped front teeth and sliced forearms when having the rare opportunity to spar with a dude from the fkking french foreign legion

(got knocked out on a regular basis, mind you :smile: )

or getting him down on his ass once ?

i dont regret a single thing, but would have the one’s missed out on.

hence why i promote the “what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger” approach

It’s not granted. You’re talking to one of them right now :smiley: I’ve played on lower clearance of Havoc, my skills was enough to be useful there. Yet it wasn’t clear to me why exactly I need to come there often and put additional effort - while getting same nothing nill zero I can already get in Auric or Damnation? Sometimes it may make sense, to tickle your nerves and get your heart pumping, but not much beyond that. And it’s another problem, as to enjoy something, you need to be good at it, and to be good at something, you need to invest time. If you don’t go to Havoc that often, you don’t get better, you don’t learn to enjoy it, you never break this circle. What is, again, not that good for popularity of the mode and its future. It’s already criticized for FS using the same stale designs from VT2 there, and I actually understand why they do so - least effort principle by using the solution tried by time, they don’t want to invest time into a mode that will be played by the small fraction of their audience. Again, the same problem all over again.

Implementing the new gear system as suggested in the opening post, while redesigning Havoc difficulties in such way that, let’s say, lowest 10-15 clearance levels would be plus-minus as difficult as Auric, just with addition of some extra Havoc-specific mechanics so people could learn the ropes in relatively safe environment - and then adding another 15-20 levels on top, to compensate for the powercreep could help to resolve it by bringing some fresh blood into its community.

I remember that scene from the House M.D. show, there was that mother with dwarfism and her daughter which seemed like having her genetics at first, but later proven having different condition which she can recover from and grow taller. When mother objects to the treatment on the ground that it’s not necessary as she has been able to “toughen up” and overcome her condition, the dr. asks her “How tough you want her to be? Should I poke her eye out to make her life even tougher?”

I think that, though being prepped for difficulties to come is important, turning every your day (and every your game session) in an obstacle course is the shortest way to severe burnout. Not every thing you do in your life needs to be full of challenge all the time. Sometimes you need the challenge, sometimes you need just to let the steam off and recharge your battery. Some people may take more of it, other can’t handle that much. There is nothing wrong (and generally it’s even beneficial financially) if a game tries to give each their own - as long as it doesn’t compromise its core selling points.

And I’m sorry to know what you have to deal with atm, regardless of our arguments here, I wish you all the best. Cheers!

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