Designing yourself into a corner

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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With the newly released Havoc mode i thought of something that has been on my mind for a while: how Fatshark seems to have designed themselves into a corner, from which there is no quick or easy escape.

We all know the game was all kinds of stale before Hestia’s Decollation Crusade update. It was still stale up until Unlocked and Loaded, but at least with Hestia’s shrine new and old players alike had some reason to play the game (other than fun).
So, in short - the shrine was designed as a way to bring the players back. It seems they didn’t know at that point, that the next update wouldn’t be released for almost 4 more months. OR DID THEY

Another thing that update introduced was special events - just playing the game would reward you with additional resources.
Obviously designed to perhaps pump players’ resource stashes somewhat before the next update when they will actually need them, it had a problem, however - these additional rewards were really small, like playing 3 damnation missions for tne entire event small.

Fathark said “okay” - and the next time around increased them - but (arguably) not enough for anyone to care.
Since then events became more expansive and we started getting portrait frames as a reward for completing them - further solidifying the fact, that resources were not enough to interest most people.

Finally, Havoc gets introduced - something “competitive”, hard, harder than the hardest modifiers known previously. And the same thing happens - you complete the hardest thing the game has to offer and all you get is… a portrait frame? MORE basic resources?
It would be fine, if new players could do Havoc, but it is designed for veterans who wanted a bigger challenge, isn’t it?

So the problem surfaces - Fatshark can’t offer anything worth your time, other than throw more enemies at you.
Their relathionshp with their own cash shop is strange - they either won’t or can’t give us premium currency (due to perhaps some contract). But… not even for Havoc?

Getting to max level Havoc seems so pointless from a competitive standpoint too - there’s no ladder, where you could at least get teammates of your own skill level, you still have all the trapedations of playing auric pubs with almost no rewards of getting through harder content! Not to mention all the trouble you have to go through to actually get a squad of pubs.

I understand, of course, that giving Aquilas for completing Havoc levels would sort of invalidate the rest of the game, as there would be little reason to play normal missions. And, more importantly, it would create an incentive for cheaters to run rampant there (wreak Havoc if you will, hehehe). But i’m pretty sure no other incentive can be presented right now.

Perhaps i’m barking at the wrong tree, and auric-goers don’t actually want any rewards, just having harder missions is enough.

Well, is it?

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The Book of Grudges: Because Fatshark Won't Listen
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For me, it’s either way. I’d play this game without expectation of reward. The rewards are a bonus. I love the gameplay elements that this game has, this type of FPS horde Shooter in this setting with this art, this music, this varied set of playstyles with all the aesthetics… It strikes something that no other game in my extensive Steam library can offer.

Between all of those qualities I mentioned, I can’t put a finger on any one trait that would work as a stand-alone reason why this game surpasses the others.

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Same here, which is why I don’t use titles, and all but one of my characters are running around in the standard outfit of the Imperial Edition (and because I just happen like it).

I’m not at Auric yet, but I don’t think that my attitude will change fundamentally when I’ll be there some time.

But also because of that, Havoc doesn’t interest me much. I’d rather have more missions, maps and enemy types.

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I believe Events were designed more as something quick FS could make to help fill the gaps between updates, not as a way to pump rewards (This would explain why the first few Events were effectively just Melk Contracts, and why the rewards were pitiful).

In fact, I think FS has a problem with folks having too many materials. I’ve got over 75,000 diamantine and that’s low compared to the numbers I’ve seen. People on the Discord even brag about hitting the cap.

But it’s so much that I can upgrade whatever I want and never have to care. Materials are thus no longer valuable to me. We really need a sink of some sort.

Perhaps someone on the mourningstar could smuggle us a stimm in exchange for diamantine, make it a checkmark in the pre-mission lobby, so we get a nice boost at the start of a level. Hell, let me buy my teammates stimms too.

Perhaps we could get a room to decorate, or some nice cosmetics that cost a boatload of mats (Or at least a title).

Or have a community event where we all throw materials into a big pit and when it fills we get something for it, like a new level, or a hat, or a pat on the back, something!

Oh, or combine the last two, where we get a title for throwing material into a pit, and the more we ‘donate’ the higher rarity our title becomes.

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the best thing about darktide for me why its been my fave game since it launched is it bucks the modern trend to bribe/pay people to play it doesn’t use all these manipulative BS moves that mobile and console developed to drive engagement it simply relies on the intrinsic fun of playing the game.

this is not a problem that needs solving.

Havoc should of either offered a challenge people would want to do , or offered a new way to play that was fun.
But the modes friction overcomes its attraction and it seems like only people trained to need to collect achievs or cosmetics are getting involved in it.

This is why its a fail and heaping rewards in there to get people to do something they don’t want to do is utterly insane imo.

Enjoyment is the key. that can be any source be it harder , varied or transformative.

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Yes it is enough to get an additional “fancy” mission if the current maelstrom is boring

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Never, once, have I played a skill based matchmaking and enjoyed it. Not that I know of many coop titles that have on. But in PVP it’s always trash

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I dunno dude, did we play the same game at launch?

You actively couldn’t get new gear you wanted without making sure to visit either Brunt’s shop once every hour or Melk’s once a day. Even if itemization is great now, the cash shop is still a rotating mobile game nightmare.

Love the game, but let’s not give them a pass on the obvious pain points.

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I don’t play for rewards at all - I just want to enjoy the game.
Sure, getting something new and snazzy is rewarding, and I can see the motivation factor in getting something new and good (in that area, it’s almost too easy now).
But, overall, I want to have nice matches.
But still, yes, Fatshark have designed themselves into a corner.
We have powercreep on both sides, with some changes to the original balance originating in the console release, and so all they can do now is to slowly work on new maps and weapons while occasionally throwing a bone to the hardcore crowd populating this forum.
Ideally, the entire progress and itemization should be reworked from the ground up, which is why I’m hoping for the eventual DT2 instead of just keeping this one alive.
So they have a chance to do away with the bandaids and just replace the patient.

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If Monster Hunter has taught me anything, the TRUE endgame of any grindy game is showing off your fashion choices to the masses. Mara’s servitor parts are just acting up a little and she forgot to order more recolors(and weapon models cough cough) to her shop. Luckily Hestia picked up a little of her slack.

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The RNG shop in its original incarnation and the still-awful FOMO cash shop that originally launched as one page disagree with you.

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Starcraft 2 ladder was probably the best in this regard. But of course even that system had issues.

All ladder systems can’t account for the fact that a player’s skill is constantly in flux, day by day.
For DT, I think accurately predicting whether someone’s gonna complete a certain map or not is immeasurably complex.

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Well it’s funny, we say they have cornered themselves, but V2 has glaring design issues too, and yet the game is still very much not dead. Not that bad design always leads to game dying.

I guess i haven’t mentioned it in the post, but it seems to me the amount of work required to “freshen” DT is now so big, that they probably are not willing to do it nor have the budget to.

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ok the RNG shop was a half arsed place holder but how did it drive engagement?

fomo cash shop? ok cant say id felt that im not a big one for cosmetics so i dont look very often but are they not there for 3 weeks then back in a short while? thats causing people to engage more than they would?

ok i can see these being called half arsed bad placeholders sure but manipulations to drive engagement? im not seeing it.

im talking about things like escalating log in rewards. events offering big rewards that are simple to do in the first weeks then ramp up to leverage sunk cost to make you play/pay more. like world of warships dockyards

everything diablo immoral does. that sort of thing

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Nope.

The original form of the cash shop was a single page. Outfits would be there for two weeks then probably gone forever, with no indication if or when they would return. Textbook FOMO tactic to get people to buy stuff by generating fear of not being able to get it later.

The form they settled on after the outcry (and after calling us mentally deficient) was three pages that cycle through every 2 weeks, so any given outfit sits for six weeks before, again, vanishing forever. Most of the outfits that’ve cycled through since that time have been recolors that they charge full price for, not an old outfit circling through.

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I agree that there’s still much that can be done with the systems that are currently in place, however if they were to, say, make us pay resources for additional mission modifiers or to have just a little extra damage or sprint speed or something, they’d have to change how missions and mission board work, rather fundamentally.

And that would be rather complex.

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You don’t have to agree, but retention and engagement mean the same thing to a corpo suit. And forcing players to periodically check the shops for the things they actually want (cosmetic or otherwise) definitely qualifies as one or both of those things.

The cash shop was (is) debatably worse because while we know it is a 2-3 week rotation for a new page and that some items will return eventually, new players don’t know that implicitly as it isn’t written anywhere in game.

Additionally, at launch we didn’t know anything either unless we looked it up outside the game.

Every aspect of the game at launch, outside of the amazing core gameplay, was designed by committee with player retention in mind. You still can’t even choose what map you want to play.

edit- strictly speaking you are right, it didn’t drive engagement, it drove people away. But those are mobile game retention/engagement devices that do work. Just not on Darktide’s core audience

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If Havoc was the only way to get red weapons, wouldn’t everyone be all over that sh!t ?

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Yeah. that would be complicated, but I’m not sure why you brought it up though.

Unless you’re comparing the ability to start with a stimm a radical change on par with being able to buy mission modifiers or non-temporary stat upgrades.

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Ultimately at the end game players are sticking around in games for one of (or multiple of) the reasons below:

  1. Overcoming challenge as its own intrinsic reward

  2. Street cred and publicly showcasing / bragging about your skills

  3. Perfecting your gear / progression / skills / etc

  4. Achievement hunting - “100%'ing” the game

  5. Acquiring drip, cosmetics, expanding customization options

  6. Climbing a competitive ranking system.

  7. Experiencing diverse gameplay / content / evolving story / etc.

Obviously many of these bleed into each other. Some people take on bigger challenges just because, others are pushed to take on more challenging content so that they can showcase it (as achievements, cosmetic rewards, climbing a public ladder or ranking system). Others don’t care about the challenge per se, but are willing to grind out reps (even on lower difficulties) because there are achievements or cosmetics tied to it.

The challenge is devising systems that work well across multiple categories.

A few thoughts with respect to darktide:

  1. Challenge - Darktide provides a good level of challenge, but for the 1% the system is too confining. Havoc’s don’t offer enough it would seem, Auric Maelstroms are too limited. Having a system where you could pay dockets to custom build missions with any set of modifiers you want to drive greater levels of challenge would be amazing and is sorely needed (and demanded).

  2. Street Cred / Bragging - comes via via cosmetics (frames, titles, and insignias mostly), but also now Havoc Rank. Some sort of leaderboard for “how many” level 40 havocs a player has completed could be one idea to drive people that are more competitively minded to play more Havoc’s at the top level. Maybe this “level 40” havoc board resets each week or every two-weeks?

  3. Perfecting gear - thankfully the progression is now fairly deterministic and short. There isn’t much “grind” involved beyond hitting level 30 and getting your first few weapons mastered. This is a GOOD thing!

  4. Achievement hunting - I do think the penance system is pretty solid overall, this has been a good addition to drive retention. Has a nice mix of things to force players into doing certain feats, versus using certain builds, taking on challenges, and also just grinding time (ie complete 100 of mission type X).

  5. Acquiring drip and customizing your character is a weak point in the game right now. There aren’t enough cosmetics to be acquired through gameplay alone and/or there is no grindable way to earn Aquila’s (even a small amount).

  • Really the improvement here needs to come along with a full rework to the cosmetic shop / system, which is hopefully where DT goes next. An official “For the Drip” type cosmetic system is such an obvious win opportunity given the 40k pedigree. If cosmetics all rewarded a “model” along with a “material” or two that could be applied to other objects with that material that would be HUGE. I’d buy a ton more premium stuff if it means I got a model that I could apply different materials/textures to or new materials to apply to other items. Payday 2 and Deep Rock are exemplars of leaning into customization.

  1. Not sure of DT needs a proper ladder or anything, but I could see Havoc evolving to have more of a “seasons” flavor to it with a seasonal ladder you can climb each time or something.

  2. More missions and narrative is always welcome - but this is high effort content that burns off pretty quickly when everything is a set piece. I would LOVE to see the core main gameplay mode evolve to be a bit more inherently diverse. Couple of specific thoughts on this:

  • Chaos waste drives replayability due to it’s “roguelike” nature of not knowing what’s going to come next. What specfic modifiers will show up on the next map? No way of knowing until you’re there.

  • I think Darktide could do a few things in tandem to make the core mission gameplay more diverse: #1 - expand the diversity of secondary objectives and make the rewards for these more impactful to your run. #2 - add MANY more modifiers (pulling from Maelstrom, Havoc, etc.) that can be applied to base game modes. Auric missions should have a chance for some/all of these modifers to be “hidden” until you start the mission (i.e. enter the ready room) to keep players on their toes. #3 - possibly even add in the equivalent of boons and/or modifiers where you start with lower-level gear and unlock your weapon over the course of the mission (again like chaos wastes). #4 - have some sort of progressive “iron man” option where you attempt to play through all the missions in a “narrative order” without failing a run. Of course every time you add a new mission you’ll push players to work through this again :slight_smile:

Just a bunch of ideas!

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