I don’t know why you are trying to paint everything on the BBB. The game was more than enough power creeped before any of the BBB changes.
As @Throne_of_Rats said, Axe&Falchion, Dualies, Crowbill, BW since wom etc existed long before the mod.
Only difference currently is that i can play cata with most weapons without feeling like I’m absolutely trolling my ass off.
The discussion about the mod being the birth of power creep is a slippery slope argument (an already unconvincing starting point) being pushed to logical extremes I can’t comprehend. As others have pointed out DLC power creep was around long before the BBB.
But really arguing the source of power creep is unhelpful, and quickly derailing this thread into semantics and tangential debate. @TmanDW absolutely hit the nail on the head. The real question is different people’s perspective on where the balance sweet spot is.
So here’s a hopefully more productive question. Is there a class/build in the game currently that you (this is aimed at everyone) would consider a good baseline for what “balanced” should look like? Perhaps if we talk specific examples we’d have more headway identifying what exactly is and isn’t ok with the game currently.
This is the problem. What we’re talking about here are subjective thresholds for what’s good at killing and what’s not.
For example, @Adelion, what do you define as good at elite killing? 1 SV kill per second, per 2 seconds? Your answer will likely be very different from mine, as mine will be from others.
To address the BBB topic in the thread, here’s a snippet of a few of the changes and my perspective of them (I wasn’t one of the modders of course but I believe this is the reasoning behind the following changes):
Merc with Greatsword, Foot Knight with Bretonnian Longsword, Slayer with Dual Axes. I don’t rank WHC without Flense and Fervency much higher than these three.
That’s funny question since nearly every career has something i would personally consider problematic. For example UC stagger, BH ult resets on bosses, etc. Uc might be there without the staggering while slayer is something I’d probably consider to be on the extreme end on the melee prowess this game should have. Even that is problematic with certain weapons like coghammer.
Curious to see what kind of answers you are going to get on this.
Yeah that’s why I gave the /build option. So you can specify a particular talent/gear Loadout to clarify which exact parts of the career combine to form a balance middle point. Of course that doesn’t really work if the base ult or passives are the unbalanced part.
Again, another factually incorrect statement. The mod had no bearing on the design of new weapons and careers. You really think adding linesman to war pick lights inspired sott? How so? Please give any amount of evidence or reasoning other than you want to claim some sort of “I told you so” badge.
You seem quite cross.
Throughout I have never stated anything is imperical fact, and all of my post will contain words such as ‘I think’, ‘in my opinion’ and ‘I get the feeling’… and I also state I am aware it is not a popular opinion so I was expecting some ire. I also know I’m unlikely to change the minds of most if not all of the players here.
None of that will prevent me from explaining my position and whether anyone thinks I’m right or wrong is up to them and many will have already dismissed what I say. That’s OK too.
The point is, as tmanDW says, everything is subjective to each player and only FS can decide what happens in the future.
My objective is to give another opinion and perspective.
Sorry, I’m not cross. Just stating that it is factually incorrect to say the BBB is at all related to the DLC content. Neither had any bearing on the other. If you want to sell something as OP, it has to be more OP then the current meta weapons. The logic just doesn’t pan out. For example, you can’t sell a new sienna weapon as OP if it’s better than crow bill/mace but worse than sword/dagger/flail.
You are correct, my bad 
yeah that’s not what I implied at all lol
thank you! that whole post hits the nail on the head
So what Incan needs to do is nerf all weapons down so the next DLC weapons can be meta.
Firstly, I think it’s Fatshark need to make the changes actually and I think a fairly wide sweep of nerfs would be welcome, even if it’s only the most stupid things. Then again, what I think is stupid (UC staggering everything in sight with the flail) might not be stupid for other people… And so we go round again… and after all there were some people intensely upset about the wrecking of Wigglemancer.
It’s been pointed out (and I tend to agree) that DLC weapons are/were always OP to boost sales when launched. Next Sienna’s weapon will also be OP (hence my earlier hyperbole that it’d be a multimelta).
While we’re still going to discuss subjective experiences here as players, it’s Fatshark who can make an arbitrary and objective decision based on numerous factors that we have no idea about.
The point of my opening post and this discussion in general is to try and have a fairly reasonable discussion on what the nerfs actually are. Problem is if you look at each class and character there’s something there that breaks that class.
Pyro is the only class I personally think needs a little boost somewhere and my thing I’d like changed is FK charge getting stuck on a pebble, but if you look at every class there’s something that “breaks the game” either by wiping out reams of plague monks, disappearing bosses, melting patrols or whatever.
Addressing SoTT, MWP, Javelins, Moonfire Bow and should be the first step on a couple of patches aimed at tugging on the reins and keeping some of the powercreep in check.
Whenever I play her, I feel as if I’ve been a total failure whenever my monster damage doesn’t have the green circle.
I think some of the problems run deeper than balance alone.
The game could be very hard and still fun, except for the extreme grind and gating of the game behind progression. That ultimately makes losing ULTRA SUCK and feel awful, when losing should be almost as fun as winning. If losing didn’t suck so much, you could nerf things a lot more without mudering your players’ happiness.
I wrote some thoughts on loss aversion here:
The other thing is that you need more degrees of freedom for difficulty than just damage and quantity. Density discrepancies make things useful in legend / cata+ but useless anywhere else. Ginormous health pools make instant kills more powerful at high difficulty than at low. Thp on kill scales badly as enemies become beefier.
One degree of freedom might be enemy attack speed, or if that’s hard to increase due to network delays, slower ally animations. Maybe cataclysm has the same health enemies at legend but you’re running at -10% attack / block speed. Maybe player outlines are disabled. This is just random stuff I can think of right now but there are ways to approach balance that don’t necessarily creat the weird breakpoint centric density dependent metagame that we have now.
Edit: another idea: change aggro ranges per difficulty.
Edit edit: you can also bring the base difficulty way up and do things for recruit - champ that make it easier beyond health and density values. A visual cue to block maybe? To dodge?
Really good point. The Experience gained while losing could at least be measured on how far through you get and if you die to Bodvar Cheekspreader at the end of Warcamp, you should only lose maybe 50 EXP as you ran the whole map basically. Would help the grind if you got close to the completion XP with full books if you die at the end. Skittergate too, Nurgloth definitely.
If VT2 is a beta testbed for Darktide, then making sure massive unsolved problems like crafting, 20k scrap, 5k dust and so on should be front and centre to make sure they never happen again. Difficulty scaling and removing the grind should be a key focus.
I agree that the lower difficulties could have more cues for when to dodge, and when to block. The prologue - although quite fun to play through - didn’t really give anything other than the most basic button presses to make something happen.
When I drop down difficulties telling people to dodge overheads is something of a revelation as most players at vet instinctively block. Unless anyone tells them dodging is better, they find Champion a massive step up as block gets broken faster.
This kind of thing should be in a kind-of-trainer difficulty or level.
I don’t see them changing the way you get loot at this point, but I’m definitely hoping they make it more enjoyable in Darktide. The all or nothing nature of it definitely feels bad, and the collecting of books being necessary for a mere chance at the best chest is tiresome and boring. Probably my favorite thing about Chaos Wastes is that you don’t have to collect easter eggs to get decent loot.
If I were to change the loot system I would change the loot to a drop based system. For instance enemies could drop color-coded gems randomly, and you would keep whatever you pick up on a run, win or lose. Then you would get some bonus gems if you win. Just imagine if sack rats actually dropped loot rather than dice that give you a tiny increase in probability of getting loot. Here’s hoping they also dump the way you reroll properties in Darktide…god help me that is annoying.
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I don’t think we need to go so far as to make losing nearly as fun as winning, but you do need to make a win feel like it’s actually rewarding you instead of just giving you another box to sit on the box pile, or another useless necklace/trinket you’ll never use. Allowing us to select particular cosmetics and actually work towards them in a meaningful way would make a huge difference in this, I feel. At the very least this should be applied to weapon cosmetics, the current system we have is just hilariously grindy.
A few more things than this need to be addressed, in my opinion. Corus staff is also hilariously broken, to the point that pats outside chaos just might as well not exist, the way RV in general interacts with some other ranged weapons is probably something that should be addressed at a weapon specific level (ammo return on bag pickups determined by weapons maybe?), mace and sword needs to be toned down somewhat also (though its light attacks need to be buffed).
Also completely disagree that it’s the balance patches fault we’ve got such busted stuff currently. Most of the weapons it changed are still pointless, to be entirely frank. They did good work with it, but I don’t think any of the weapons it really hit are outliers or anything you could blame for the absurdity of moonbow. I don’t think any of the bigger community patches have encouraged power creep to this degree, bar some reworks I’ve seen that are clearly not finished.
I also don’t think javelins are outliers anywhere near the same level as moonbow, and I think the elf staff is a much more problematic weapon than them.
If they had some kind of Shrine to offer solace to the weary warrior, or be able to take out a contract to work towards something you wanted that would be amazing. If they had some kind of system where that kind of thing was in the game it might make a significant difference to the grind and reward players for revisiting.
Gutted there’s nothing like that in the game.
I feel like these statements are a touch contradictory
So you’re acknowledging your theory about the BBB is incorrect or??
To clarify, we had no communication or knowledge from FS the mod would be ported into the base game, we also weren’t finished with the mod nor were we given any input on how the mod should be implemented or what changes FS made/added to it. We also received significant backlash over various points of it and at times for things we weren’t responsible for in the slightest (talent changes, mace & sword heavies). I personally had a group of people follow and harass me on and off across multiple platforms for about 8 months. AND EVEN NOW we still have to defend our work due to constant prattle from an extremely vocal minority who decide to blame our work for things like moonbow existing despite even a cursory glance at Vermintide 1 and 2’s history showing DLC powercreep isn’t a new thing from Fatshark and there’s zero correlation between our mod and the following DLCs. It’s incredibly tiring having to have spent pretty much the last year and a bit being scapegoated by the same handful of people for the current state of things; even if that’s not the intent of said people, that’s what it is.
The upset about SoB wasn’t about there being no new weapons, it was that the illusions we got were just a straight up recolour (while you can get a whole colour slider in modded for free). If we got the current premium skins in Bogenhafen there’d have been very few complaints on that front.
Simultaneously being condescending whilst also reducing the position to absurdity is just silly. Especially when my point about modded flew right over your head.
