Honestly the BBB work was brilliant. Exceptional in bringing out many nuances of each weapon and helping everything be closer in power level. The nerf to exe sword felt bad at the time, but in the grand scheme of the game it really was for the best. If I knew how to mod for PC I would probably take a crack at it, but sadly on PS4.
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Just to touch on this, enemies do attack faster and deal more stamina damage when you go up in difficulty. As you mention, there’s a hard limit to how far you can go with that given networking issues and such. A lot of players experience the game on high latency due to living in remote areas or simply being far away from the people with whom they like to play, and the game is already punishing and restrictive enough for them. The same would hold true if you’d nerf animation speeds for various actions. 10% might not seem much, but it is extremely significant and would completely screw you over on high latency.
I don’t think that builds being designed around breakpoints is all that relevant in the grand scheme of things. After all, expeditions remove that aspect entirely and they still play fine for the most part, outside of maybe very specific stuff like handguns. Neither is the scaling with enemy density that some talents possess all that problematic imo. Sure, certain things become really effective when you go up in difficulty, but if you push density towards the extreme end it’s not like the game is entirely trivial if you’re constantly swarmed by specials and endless blobs of infantry. I’m not saying it’s ideal design, but it’s the direction the game has been heading for from the very beginning and realistically I don’t see it changing.
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I don’t understand the general powercreep opinion about Javeline.
Javeline outside of SotT really isn’t that good, it actually requires quite a high level of skill to be able to utilize it as effectively as SotT does on other Characters
I like the Javeline in it’s current state, I would argue the weapon isn’t the problem.
It has quite a high skillceiling
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You’re not the only person who’s argued that. IMO most people who complain about it are failing to disentangle it with SotT’s kit, which is the main if only place it becomes problematic.
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I would kindly ask you to refrain from such comments. I am not sure it is wise to tell me I am condescending when half your answers to me contain words like “lol” or “lmao” berating me. Half of this discussion wouldn’t have happened if you had simply let it slide. It also doesnt help when you clearly say something, just so that others have to jump in and tell me “He didn’t mean what he said.”
I am also not sure it is a good idea to tell me that points flew right over my head if people ignore the reasoning given. Or also if you can’t follow Argonaut’s argumentation. The statements are not contradictory.
It is also not helpful when Sleezy continues to use the word “factually” factually wrong. I explained multiple times already that his whole argumentation is based on the faulty premise that absolutely everyone was using the meta set-ups so the baseline hasn’t shifted. And I have shown the fault in this logic with my over-the-top example. FS has the data to check this and I am 100 % sure that it is simply wrong for public games in the official realm. I even went out of the way to explain how people like Argonaut and me come to different conclusions in contrast to people who spent most time in modded. It is okay if you want more powerful weapons. That is a legitime balance position. But try not to paint it as keeping the baseline or even nerfing it. It is not worth to die on that hill.
What I am trying to find out at the moment is if the shift in the design philosophy (and this is not about power creep) which happened to start with the BBB is intentional from FS or some simple oversight.
Independent from the definition of power creep the game got easier by the BBB. Even TmanDW said so. And for the record I would take his evaluations over those of other people. As such I also agree with his reasoning that it is not worth argueing about semantics. Just led it slide like I tried to do yesterday before you felt the need to berate me once again out of the blue.
Also, I would like everyone of us to ask themselves and consider where they spent most of their playtime with the game. If someone spends 75+ % of their time with modded difficulties I have trouble seeing how he would balance for public games. This is neither ill intent nor conciously but is impacting decisions.
I would also ask other to avoid villainification and speaking of loud minorities. The topic of the different design philosophies is rarely discussed openly so a clash may be unavoidable if it appears.
Lastly, I would like to ask Fatshark once again what the general goal on baseline is:
Fatshark do you want a game with one four-man army or a game with four one-man armies?
I will once again try to let this slide for a more pin-pointed discussion by other people. I would also politely ask again people to refrain from further attacks and berating. I am still available for discussion by PMs.
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Hi Hedge! 
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So the reason I brought up modded is that it’s high difficulty content, which typically requires teamwork and a decent amount of skill to get through, and has a pretty restricted meta. Which is essentially what you’d be creating if you nerfed everything down until Cata became “hardly possible”. Yeah you’ve gotten yourself a harder difficulty but at the cost of build diversity which is a significant part of what makes games fun and player agency. You’re also pushing down on the player’s power which simply means running less effective gear will result in the content feeling spongy, which isn’t exactly engaging. Hell the skill component gets eroded unless you’re able to rework enemies to be more engaging in lower numbers, which isn’t achievable through just making them have higher effective health, the result otherwise is bullet sponges. That’s why I brought up modded, your response to it really doesn’t tell me you got the point of it hence my comment.
I’ll put it down to language barrier I guess.
Also as for the question about where players spend most of their playtime; the majoriy of my playtime, the VAST majoriy of it, is on official realm.
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I couldn’t have put this better myself (not that it’s a high bar, I’m known for falling over my own words from time to time!) 
This kind of thread can easily turn in to a supernova of opinions. But @alsozara is on the right path to clarity.
The state of the game (however you perceive it) has literally just one team to hold accountable and that’s us here at Fatshark. It’s not fair to point at the peeps who sunk huge amounts of man hours in to a balance mod and pin it on them or their great work, because it’s entirely our Team here who decides on what goes in to the game. And as noted, arguably (but realistically) the most busted changes that can still be seen today were entirely of our own creation anyhow and not a part of the mod.
Nothing holds anyone back from creating a balance mod that might well pique the interest of the designers here. Inc and co. took the initiative and we rolled with it, entirely of our own volition. It’s not like guns were pointed at us and we were told to “implement this OR ELSE”. Nothing is stopping anyone from trying it themselves, either through theory craft or a modded implementation.
A small amount of value can be gleaned from a retrospective in this case, but the real value is in looking at where we are, and where we should be going. So I’d ask instead of bashing on history books, put thought in to what you want to see from future changes (as the wise @alsozara suggests).
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Maybe it’d be a good starting point to make another poll and ask the community what they feel like are the most balanced careers? It won’t be the end-all-be-all answer but the data might provide some good insight from all skill levels.
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A poll is to limited. But a new thread focusing on that sole question might be an idea.
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I mean Hedge, we understand this. Both Argonaut and me took care to specifically mention that the only accountable one is Fatshark. But as you can see - and this in independent from the specific discussion in this thread - there is a lot of frustration on all sides and for the book, most people at least in this forum would agree that the current state of balance is a bit to much. How to counter this is more the point of discussion. But the frustration should be at least understandable for FS. It also doesn’t help that we get comments like:
I mean you clearly acknowledge (not sure if as Hedge the person or Hedge the CM) that stuff is busted. Yet, we do not see any movement nor hear of it. And some of this stuff is several patches old.
It is not like this isn’t happening on a regular scale and there has been a lot of theory crafting and good examples (thinking of some stuff by Velsix). But nothing of this has ever been adapted. This leaves me conflicted because I do not think FS owes us any communication. If you can’t or don’t want to talk then that is fair. But it causes frustration.
So I will try my luck with a simple question: Are there to be expected changes of balance in … this year?
Because right now, I would say that over all forums people are kinda fed up with at least the most egrigious outliers. I understand that there is a part of the community which rejects nerfs on a religious base but I for once would like to see some notable nerfs and no further buffs. So if change is coming (or even when not) it would be helpful for the frustration or work as forewarning if we could get a community post by the balance decision makers on where we stand in their opinion and where to go. It could help us to be less frustrated and to discuss in a more civilized manner.
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@Fatshark_Hedge I don’t know if I can put into words how much it means that you came into this scary looking thread and made that post.
It is enormously reassuring to know that these discussions are being read and that this is an issue you’re watching. I know directly coming into these threads is something you prefer not to do and I completely understand the reasons for that. In this case though I’m really glad you decided to come talk to us directly.
Truly, thank you. It inspires a lot of hope for the future of this game we all love and have poured absurd amounts of hours into.
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What would help us be more civilized is if we quit with the outlandish beating of dead horses. I can talk balance amicably with literally everyone on this forum pretty much regardless of disagreement, except you two. Because it’s only you two who keep trying to pin stuff on our work in a hilariously unfair and weirdly dedicated manner despite all evidence pointing to the contrary on a lot of points (namely the history of both V1 and V2s balance and previous DLCs of both titles)
If we wanna talk letting things slide, let our work slide, it’s been literally over a year and no one else is bothered by it from what I’ve seen at this point but…well you two. Even the guys who harassed me for 8 months over the billhook nerf gave up. If your focus is genuinely on game state, you’ll focus on the current game state than this one thing. Everyone else manages it just fine and as I said earlier I do not appreciate me or my boys being scapegoated for current balance problems, which is essentially what this is. James’ meme is pretty on point as far as that logic is concerned.
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If you read my posts, you will notice that I am talking about the design philosophy. The origin is only one part of it. And I am trying to figure out where Fatshark stands on this. Nothing i said is stated as fact and I carefully explained how those impressions came to be.
I mean what do you expect? There have been a lot of good suggestions in this forum which have never came to pass. Granted some stuff happened very much later on. But as far as I remember FS only ever reacted fast to two forum posts. One was about broken builds and the other was the weapon balance mod which in your own words wasnt even finished. And then I have to see that another mod with - let’s say - less than stellar balance suggestions based on the same design philosophy is there. Of course, I would take the chance to explain FS why I think which issues are with this and where it comes from.
Again, this is all explained carefully and is neither hilariously nor unfair. Nothing is stated as fact and I gave the arguments so that everyone can form his own opinion.
And I am certainly not dedicated to it. If I have a dedication then it would be to get rid of Attack Speed and Crit Stacking in different forms.
James meme (based on Sleezy’s comment) completely missed the point we have been making. I will refrain from making a picture.
Adding “in my opinion” doesn’t suddenly give you a get out of jail free card for being wrong. And yes blaming the mod for the eventual state of things like moonbow is just silly and provably false. As Hedge stated, it’s all their design, not ours. The only things we’re responsible for are the things in our unfinished mod. As for the other mod you’d be referring to that we’re involved with? it’s very clearly not intended for official realm hence the name of it stating it’s explicitly for onslaught series. Now lemme make some threads talking about why Argonaut and Adelion’s threads have less than stellar suggestions because I need to explain to FS the problems with their design philosophy.
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I will still refrain from illustrating this. The argumentation for this has been given. That balance is ultimately FS’s decision doesn’t mean that some works influence them. But no point in arguing this further.
Which both Argonaut and me acknowledged multiple times.
No, I mean the one before with solely the changes to THP and Stagger talents.
Feel free to do so. It is a forum for discussions.
that doesn’t really mean anything when the end result is still dragging us through the mud.
alright let’s make this easy then. @Fatshark_Hedge did our weapon mod influence the intended power levels of Sister of the Thorn, Masterwork Pistol, Moonbow etc.?
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You are asking a conscious question for a subconcious process? Good luck with that. Tha answer will be no, that it is only FS’s decision which is also correct. Not the point I am making though.
But you haven’t. We made clear that we appreciate the work and effort but that we simply do not agree with the set baseline. Nothing more. That is more or less the whole argumentation. We have not attack you or anyone else of the mod makers as far as I am aware. We attacked the set baseline because we disagree on - due to missing a better term - an ideogical level.
you lot have chosen a very interesting way of going about that if so 
reminder Argonaut is the origin of the unpaid amateur meme, which while I find it hilarious, I struggle to believe was intended as being appreciative lmao.
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From the OP. The issue is the set baseline. He also made clear that he bears no ill will. I mean how else should I interpret this? We could argue if “mod caused powercreep” could be interpreted as attack/insult.
EDIT: I will be a bit rude now. I think you are overly touchy with negative opinions towards the mod and tend to interpret them as attacks against the creators. I have no issues with you Incandescent, just with your balance decisions (and maybe your australian humor (<= Joke!! just to avoid misunderstandings)).