Does FS still rely solely on player feedback for balancing, not counting occasional streams? Imo this is a catastrophic way to develop games, as it’s basically just a big shareholder-driven game of broken telephone.
Well I’m sure it’s not solely player feedback, but any kind of feedback whatsoever would’ve highlighted the SoTT was a walking superweapon. SO this suggests they knew exactly what they were doing and launched a P2W career, and weapons pack too.
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First of all, how do you know that the game is balanced around Cataclysm and not Legend? If memory serves, Verm1 used to be balanced around Nightmare for a very long time, so the next to highest difficulty. I don’t know of any explicit confirmation that Verm2 is balanced around Cataclysm. Secondly, I don’t really understand your argument about the lower difficulty levels. They are interesting when you are brand new to the game and figuring things out. They shouldn’t remain a challenge hundreds or thousands of hours later, unless you’ve managed to learn nothing that whole time. Not sure what people you hang out with. Generally when I infiltrate into lower difficulties I find exactly what I’m expecting, namely players who are new, who don’t know much of anything and who struggle with the basics.
What exactly did that balance mod change in terms of meta setups? Elf? Sword&Dagger was the very best melee weapon prior to that mod and has remained so after. Salt? Rapier was and has remained his very best weapon, with only marginal competition from billhook or Axe&Falchion. Sienna? Flamesword/Flail have remained the very best picks. The mace is still a meme, her dagger & sword are good but not a real competition with the aforementioned best picks and crowbill feels completely forgotten. I recall every single pub Bardin running dual hammers prior to the update and tbh that hasn’t changed much. Kruber’s Exe sword ended up over-nerfed and nothing else that was buffed in that mod comes close to Mace&Sword, which was FS’s own implementation. As was already pointed out, all of the power creep comes from FS’s own updates (unrelated to player feedback) and DLCs.
At this point it would be best to simply wait for the next update and see what happens. Hopefully the feedback around this forum and other places has been heard. There are several player-made balance mods that present a ton of cool ideas. I imagine that towards autumn/winter there will be some manner of testing/balance update.
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If it comforts you in anyway, I agree with you. It is an undeniable fact that the majority of the weapons got buffed last summer and also that the average power baseline has massively increased. However, not above the general meta-slaving setups. So, is that power creep? There is no general definition, so it can’t be said clearly. According to most entries one can find no:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/power_creep
Most answers reduce the term to simply introducing something above the highest current level. In my opinion, this is shortsighted and doesn’t get the whole picture. So if we look around more in more obscure sources we can find an additional definition (in bad english):
“Power Creep can also refer to the average increase in relative power for all released content in a game.”
And this is exactly what we saw within the last BBB. An average increase in relative power. How does this lead to different perceptions? Well, that has mainly to do how you play the game. People playing modded content, true solo, premade teams are generally bound to play with the meta set-ups for reason that other set-ups will be less effective against the major enemy spam per person. For them the BBB did not introduce any kind of power-up. However, this argument makes only sense for players which were mostly meta-slaving anyway.
For people playing mostly public games on Legend and Cataclysm in the Official Realm however will see a different picture. While there is a large part of the community which tends to stick to meta set-ups (let’s say 30-50 %) it is not the whole community. With the average increase in relative power this lead as result to an average increase in relative power in all public games in the official realm for people playing with randoms. So yea, in official realm with randoms the game got power crept.
Why is this in an issue? Well, the whole balance beta had two design issues which came with it. The first is the general mobility buff which favours a dodge & dps playstyle over other playstyles. While one could argue that more weapons became “viable”, the focus once again shifted to dish out as much dps as possible similar to the horrible pre-WoM balance leading to less playstyle diversity in the end (see “Are tanks worthwhile” threads as an example of this). There is a tad to much mobility in the game which makes “glass cannon/dps” builds overly strong because the “glass” never comes to frutition as you can evade damage quite easily by moving and dodging.
The second issue was the generalist approach for weapon tuning. All weapons should be somewhat good against everything and not have significant weaknesses. However, this makes the creation of newer weapons more difficult because the better the power level is the harder it gets to create a new niche for weapons. So Fatshark had a few options. Make weapons similar to existing ones and being called lazy in the process. Make weapons weaker than what we have which makes economically not much sense. Double down on niche applications which make them absurdly strong in their niche and leaving no room for the remaining three players in that field (an example of this would be the Griffon Foot which is absurdly strong against anything not-armoured). The last option is just to make better weapons (example of this would be the Moonfire Bow or the Javelin which are simply to excellent in to many areas, and that for infinite ammo weapons.
So where does this leave us? Depends on your perspective. I think most people over all forums would agree that at the very least all weapons released in the last 12 months should have a serious look at them followed by a noticeable nerf (we are not talking about SotT non-nerf levels). After that it depends if you are a generalist solo-yolo or a specialist mough-dough.
Personally, I am with the OP and say FS has to go further than just adressing the releases of the last 12 months. So, I agree with this part:
Power level would be one idea and “easily” doable. However, I have a hard time gauging the effects of such a change because it is rather abstract.
The easiest first step for a system-wide adjustment would be the stagger system. Unification or not is another design philosphy question but generally some of the stagger talents should be taken down a notch making them less of a general power increase and more of a specialized power increase. The current Enhanced Power, Smiter and Assasin are not well designed and Bulwark while interesting on paper will never be able to get a niche in that talent row. I think simply separating the talents in specialized niches would help a lot with zero influence on weapon viability.
The more difficult second step for a system-wide adjustment would be properties&traits. Tone down Swift Slaying and crits. Make ammo regeneration traits less effective. This alone would help a lot for the general power level. Stuff like this has also been discussed to death.
In the end, the same as for the BBB as for all the releases counts. Fatshark is the one making the decisions. So let me ask:
Fatshark do you want a game with one four-man army or a game with four one-man armies?
Because right now, it feel less like a co-op game as before the BBB and feels more like a four murder-hobos simulator. People simply are to self-sufficient even without the power-creep weapons. I am not saying that you need to go to the other extreme from the WoM betas where you needed dedicated roles. However, a shift more towards 50:50 (teamwork needed : being self-sufficient) would be appreciated. Right now, it is more like 25:75 or even worse. We don’t need more general power, no matter how miniscule it is.
More could be said. But more sleep is needed as well. Fatshark do something. Even if you slightly overnerf everything so that Cataclysm becomes hardly possible, I don’t care. Nothing will be lost when the actual hardest difficulty is actually hard. Nothing will be lost by that other than pride.
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those threads are pretty dumb considering tanks are still and continue to be really good with Foot Knight being the only one that is relatively weak. Literally never seen anyone suggest IB is a bad class and he’s the truest tank there.
I’m gonna say the urban dictionary (lmao) definition is more shortsighted in this context than the wikitionary one…not that either source is particularly amazing but I guess cherry picking the definitions that suit us isn’t particularly meaningful eh? I could post this Power creep - Hearthstone Wiki definition and argue that the weapon rebalance tried to resolve this by removing some power from strong stuff and restoring it to weaker/older stuff. But you’re not gonna by that definition so why bother even though it’s literally what’s been happening with DLC content in this game.
idk how the BBB gets blame for this when this has been the case literally since release for any build that is considered decent.
one thing I find personally really irritating about modded difficulties, even the ones that are nigh impossible is that you have very very little choice in what you can run, you either run the ultra meta stuff or you’re trolling. Cataclysm used to have this problem in some capacity but not because cata was hard, just because a lot of stuff sucked. Legend and Cata definitely gets harder if you gimp yourself by running healshare, flail, buckshot BH with scuffed properties and traits but that’s not where the difficulty should come from because that feels like sh*t to play. The game’s highest difficulties should be hard for the average player, yes, and by and large they probably are seeing as most of the playerbase is still vet-champ. We’re all sitting here as players with hundreds of hours and likely been playing since release or even playing since VT1 musing on how the game feels easier than it did a year ago; no sh’t it should feel easier with that much time put into it.
I agree a lot of things currently need nerfing to varying degrees (pretty much everything from DLC barring Engineer as a class). I think there are things that also need buffing too, however. There’s a nuance here that I feel like gets lost when people make these massive hyperbolic statements lmao.
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Kill the level 15 row and completely reevaluate the nature of DoTs, who should have it, and in how much quantities.
Spawn rates across lower difficulties probably should have been bumped to begin with, but I don’t know if that’s a definitive solution considering I’ve been in Cata for so long that I’ve no memory or concept of what pre-endgame power feels like. I do believe Legend should either have higher spawns or Cata-tier specials and elites.
Redo the weapon traits, but in case that never happens: remove Swift Slaying and do an appropriate bump in attack speed of all heavy weapons (there’s no standard, some 2h weapons are fine without attack speed and some currently require Swift Slaying to even function).
Recruit and Vet objectively are. Champion is the first difficulty level where any braindead player can’t just hold W and spam left click with whatever weapon they have, as not dodging an overhead is already quite punishing. It is the first floor that teaches game mechanics.
And I think this is a good thing. I think Champion is the first time you actually start learning about the synergies - mostly looking out for what deals damage to what, what cleaves what, what staggers what, etc. The downside I see to this is players getting used to staggering monks out of a combo with a hammer to the face, which doesn’t work as well in Legend or Cata.
Agreed. This is not only a problem of difficulties not being challenging, but why they aren’t.
So do you mean scrap Recruit, take current Vet and call it Recruit, take current Champ and call it Vet, etc. ? Cause the way I see it, the game isn’t balanced around any difficulty - or rather the weapons and talents are (supposed to be) balanced between themselves and then the difficulties are balanced around the game.
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To my knowledge mass and stagger resist are identical from Champ through to Cata.
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So what? It is modded difficulty and Fatshark shouldn’t balance around them. If people are discontent with the variety of weapons suitable for modded they could do … you know … make a mod and leave it at the modded realm.
No, this never the case with a few exceptions. This was at best a perception problem. But most weapons were viable before and have also been used in Cataclysm matches in a non-trolling, non-memeing way. Just saying they sucked before and everyone used only the meta anyway doesn’t cut it as arguement. Nonetheless, FS has the data to check this. So there is no point discussing this further.
Well, before it was choice. Now, it is default. That is the difference.
Very, very, very few. And we should for once concentrate the discussion on the other side of the spectrum to not dilute it.
Well, looking at the forums Engineer is considered a powerful class in public official realm games. While the class has its weaknesses they are only an issue of you play True Solo or modded, nothing which hinders him for official content. He doesn’t need a nerf. He doesn’t need a buff either.
And nuances are made. Not sure what “massive hyperbolic statements” you mean.
That definition is in line with the wiki entry which I quoted. I also purposefully did not cherry-pick and quoted both definitions so that everyone can make up his own mind. I am also not sure how the entry which incorporates a broader definition can be the short-sighted one. And I also used both definitions. The DLC releases are obviously power creep. The weapon balance has also been. But I can try to make this easier with an example (and yes, this one will be dripping with hyperbole to get the point across):
The Plummets (a hopefully non-existent developer) release a new 4-player PvE game with 5 weapons: Weapon The One, Weapon The Bee, Weapon Gamma, Weapon Ivy and the New-K-Nicer. The first four weapons need 3-5 shots to kill an enemy. The last weapon needs one shot to kill an enemy and has a special function where it shoots a rocket into the air which splits up in 25 small projectiles which then rain down on the battlefield killing every enemy in the area of 100 m. 37 % of playership run the New-K-Nicer, the rest is actually playing the game.
This initital release state of the game is kept for two years after which the developers decide to descent their ivory tower bringing balance upon people. The New-K-Nicer is nerfed by only splitting into 20 small projectiles and killing every enemy in the are of 98 m. The rest of the weapons are brought to this level. As result, the game becomes easier because the other 63 % now have by default superstrong weapons. According, to the general definition this would not be considered power creep because the meta didn’t rise.
But do not fret. I understand the reflex to defend the mod. But you will not be able to convince me otherwise. I have given my opinion and explained where it comes from. Equally, I will not try to convince you otherwise. I know this is impossible. We don’t have to convince each other anway. We have to convince Fatshark and so I will let them decide if my argumentation is sound and hope that they react and bring down the nerf hammer. Looking at the last 12 months I am not sure if they are willing to. If I can at least keep them from implemeting harmful community suggestions it would be a start.
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How should a weapon be decided as too weak or too strong?
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@Adelion I gotta ask, which weapons do you feel were overbuffed or powercrept hard in the BBB?
(Other than Mace & Sword, that’s a given)
I’m reading through the patch notes and nothing major stands out, a lot of the changes look like they just made the weapons feel good to use or gave purpose to under-utilized attacks & combos.
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And they don’t. And I’m fairly certain that’s not what Incan implied.
If you asked yourself the question “What am I gaining for picking this weapon?” in the time-frame between WoM’s release at the balance update, the answer was generally “nothing”. Most weapons had no advantage over the 1-2 top picks that everyone ran. And they still don’t, which makes me perpetually puzzled in regard to the response some people showed to that update. As far as gear is concerned, the only shift in meta was introduced by FS themselves through new DLCs. Which isn’t even a new practice. They’ve always released overtuned stuff ever since Verm1 and eventually worked out a proper balance through community testing and feedback. The only difference is that lately they’ve released more of it with less balance updates in between, but I believe they’ll catch up with that.
Not really. There’s maybe a handful of blatantly busted weapons and a couple of careers that need looking into, unless your goal is to turn Verm2’s gameplay into the Verm1 experience, which is a fundamentally flawed idea at this point. There are so many other things that are rather uninspired or boring in design. The two should probably be addressed together. Mainly tone down the busted weapons and rework the careers that feel forgotten.
You mean the same forums where it’s considered that moonfire bow needs a slight buff and that SoTT is fine? 
I can help you in that regard. Maybe he is referring to the following statement:
Is that really so? Seriously.
At the end of the day I’m very certain that the devs usually do what they want for the game anyway. Whatever is in line with their own vision and plans. It’s not like you’re having a malevolent cabal of super try-hard sweat-lords who send balancing instructions to FS (aimed at C3DWONS+ and up, naturally), which the devs just follow by the letter. Back in the last update, I clearly remember FS stating that many of the changes in that mod were on their own mind anyway. They generally took very few and minor things beyond that, like swapping attack patterns for a few weapons and such. The most broken stuff (think Mace&Sword) was entirely their own doing.
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With melee weapons I think the ones that are great at both horde clearing and elite killing tend to be the problem. The greatsword to me is where specialized weapons should be: great at one of those things and kind of bad at the other. Meanwhile the halberd is a great example of a jack-of-all-trades weapon: decent at both of those things, but a little hard to use. With ranged weapons I just think damage tends to be too high or ammo tends to be too plentiful in many cases. Frankly we are pretty much right back at the old ranged meta that Fatshark tried to get rid of three years ago. Well-balanced ranged weapons are the single shot, special removers, while javelins and the moonfire bow simply combine high damage with high spamability to create completely absurd ranged damage dealers. Overall, I think ammo on ranged careers needs to be brought back in line with overcharge, because at present they are worlds apart in terms of how much they limit ranged spam.
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As I said, it is less that singular weapons have been powered up outside of the meta. It is that the average baseline has been increased. Was it at 50 before, it would be now at 80 while the top has been brought from 100 to 95. I just think that the influence of the average baseline increase is more noticeable than the decrease of the top which affected like 5? weapons. Looking through the patch notes you should see stuff like: damage increased by 30 %, finesse modifier increased by 25 - 30 %, overcharge generation decreased by 30 %, increased numbers of dodges, etc. Those are some heavy numbers. Even if you say that they only cover specific niches like the heavy damage or headshots, my whole argument is that the average has increased. Which is simply noticeable if you play a lot on the official realm.
And the issue I have is with the very question already. Because not everyone plays Vermintide like a number calculator. Those weapons which brought nothing to the game were still played and averaged out better set-ups in the official realm. This is no longer the case.
No, my goal is to shift the game slightly more towards teamwork preferred again. A few very simple changes would be enough already. As Argonaut said, there should be an adjustment on global scale, not just the specific and obvious outliers.
I have yet to find that forum. While there are always the non-believers. The general consens over all forums is pretty stable. I have yet to find a person saying Engineer is weak who is NOT playing a ton of modded realm. Anectodal of course. For normal Cataclysm the damage output is insane and second to none against anything unarmored.
If he means that than okay. I misunderstood. I thought (warning brain wrecking logic following) he meant hyperbolic statements which have been posted as serious “facts”. I mean the title is easily identifiable as hyperbole. So I don’t see the issue with it.
Yes, which I also noted in my posts. At the end it is Fatshark’s decision. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t influenced in conscious or subconcious ways by what we are writing. Which is why I am giving my opinion here. Otherwise, I wouldnt even try. It is just that we have the balance state now for 12 months and in my opinion (<= !!) the generalist approach has failed so we should make some changes to that.
Wanting to play something bad just because it’s bad is a very niche view. You don’t need to be a number calculator to figure out that something is bad. All you have to do is pick up the damn weapon and realize it doesn’t do anything worthwhile. Your following statement makes no sense. After that update there was a noticeable increase in weapon variety throughout public games, and to an extent that remains true. The fact that some weapons dominate the scene again is mainly due to DLC releases, which is entirely on FS’s end. In the particular niche of Cataclysm expeditions, it’s also a case of some weapons having an extremely rough start when gear is stripped of qualities and the power level is diminished.
First of all, unless you consistently get all the green circles all the time by some out of whack degree you probably don’t realize how much the people around you are contributing to your success. Secondly, reliance on teamwork is tied into your own experience and time spent with the game. There comes a point where you’ve played the game so much and know it so well that you’re kinda breezing through it no matter what unless you find ways to step up the difficulty with new content, either sanctioned or modded. You can of course just handicap yourself (and everyone around you indirectly) by running something completely stupid, but I don’t understand that approach.
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I never said I wanted to play something bad. Not “gaining” something by picking a weapon does not equal that said weapon is bad. I simply want to play adequate weapons.
That is nice and all. But I am not talking about me not needing the help of the team. I am talking about random team mates I am playing with on public Cataclysm matches regularly taking care of most stuff for themselves. Which is why I am not taking myself as point of balance but rather the broad and average spectrum of players I encounter in public games.
If you discuss with me always assume that I am a horribly bad player or at least below average. I am not looking for gimping or handicapping me. I am merely looking for balance being in balance with the Official Realm. There are nuances to weapon balance and there are states between something being to good and something being bad. Personal example: I played Axe&Shield and Drakefire Pistols on Cataclysm before the last BBB. It was a good and extremely viable combo. Still, despite being already very viable both good a buff (even if the Shield one was rather small, it was simply unneeded, same as Drakefire Pistols).
Obviously, this is subjective and Fatshark has to decide which criteria they use. But honestly I wouldn’t be suprised if the percentage of the active playership in Legend and Cataclysm rose last year and the entry level/playtime sank in the same time. And that before the DLC releases. If that was FS’s goal, they have succeeded. Then I can only accept it.
But honestly, do you think that either of us will get something from this exchange? We can go up and down but I don’t think much will change in our perspectives. I said part of what I wanted to say for Fatshark to see it. I explained how I arrived at my perspective and why I think that the design philosophy of the last 12 months including BBB has issues and how that lead us to SotT and Moonfire Bow/Javelin. It is up to them if they find the argumentation sound.
If you still have motivation we can move this to PMs. Same for anyone else who wants to keep brawling. At least for the moment I think I will refrain from further commenting in the thread as i think it is healthier if new people are giving their input instead of me/us repeating ourselves. I see TmanDW typing. Yet, another pespective. It should help Fatshark to get a broader input.
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The thing you and Incan are actually argueing about isn’t the mod itself, but in the end the argument you want to make is about at what level player power / the actual difficulty of this game should be. What the mod objectively did is that it actually sunk the highest power level a tiny bit and pulled a lot of weapons up to a power level under the former maximum power level. At this point it is very contraproductive to the actual argument you want to make to go on about this old mod and the semantics of power creep, because Incan is only going to defend the mod against such accusations as a good case can also be made that the mod wasn’t powercreep at all. You must realize that the goal of the mod was never to overhaul the balance / power in the game, but rather to combat a narrow meta. And that’s exactly what it did. Succesfully. The problem of power in this game was never really caused by the mod, and it arguably wasn’t even really made worse by it either. And blaming the mod for power outliers like DLC stuff released after it was made and incorporated isn’t really a good argument, nor is it useful in any way at all at this point.
Now, the argument about the average / mean power level of stuff having increased over time in itself is actually relevant to this discussion. My two cents is that - outliers like the Moonbow aside - power creep in thus game has little to do with the weapons themselves. The issues are pretty much for the biggest part caused by ults and talents instead. With general game mechanic changes accounting for the second biggest part. If you’d remove all talents and class traits in this game, the balance of most weapons relative to each other in this game is actually pretty damn good. The broken stuff is all ults and insane weapon-talent synergy and such. That’s what needs an overhaul most, and that’s where power creep can be combated. Monsters / Lords, for example, have become unbalanceable because one class can delete them in seconds, while another would need minutes of non-stop hacking to even make a dent in them. Changing monsters themselves will never ever solve that. Changing ults and classes, however, will. Javelins in themsrlves aren’t really overpowered compared to, say, the Longbow. But interactions with SotT or Waystalker talents can make them ridiculous. Changing Javelins themselves by a lot isn’t going to solve this. Changing the offending classes, however, will.
As for the problem about balance in one difficulty affecting the balance of another: That is inevitable given how difficulty in this game is done for a big part with enemy health and stagger resist. It is even theoretically impossible to balance two weapons with different damage values in such a way that they are equally valuable relative to each other for every possible enemy health value. Example: If in difficulty X weapon 1 takes 4 hits and weapon 2 takes 2 hits, but they are balanced relative to another by means of attack speed and cleave and such, messing with enemy health (either increase or decrease) for difficulty X-1 or X+1 will always favor one of these two weapons over the other one which screws up their relative balance. The only way to solve that would be to completely overhaul the way difficulty in this game is done to a system where enemy health / stagger / cleave values are the same across difficulties, but things like enemy behavior (agressiveness, tactics, moves), numbers, and composition are different. That will not realistically happen to Vermintide 2, however. And in such a scenario, it absolutely makes sense to balance things around the highest difficulty. Because if a player is finding a difficulty too easy with their current setup thay can always go up a level, but if stuff is tricvial with their current setup on the highest level you have no real options anymore.
The real discussion, which happens to involve subjective experiences, is at what level the difficulty of the game feels right. Because of subjectiveness that is very hard to get a consensus on. I guess everybody would agree that outliers like SotT need to be taken down a notch. But whether this game feels right when you’re playing - for example - WHC with Rapier on Legend or rather when playing - just to give a crazy example - Pyro with a Mace and Healshare on Cata is another thing altogether. And there isn’t really going to be an objectively correct answer here. Or an easy way to change the entire game’s balance to a specific point…
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Well just to clear this point I wasn’t implying you nor anyone else specifically. My point was that unless a player is outkilling everyone else by a large margin in all aspects, there is plenty of cooperation and support going on, even if not as immediately apparent.
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The weapons patch that was based on the mod was the beginning of the power-creep as far as I’m concerned because although no single weapon or batch of weapons came up to the level of current MWP or whatever, the changes FS put in place in that patch have put us on the road to where we are now.
I think MWP, Moonfire Bow, Javelin and to some degree Krubers Spear and Shield are only where they’re at because they need to compete or outperform(for sales reasons) with the current average baseline of weapons, which was boosted through that patch. [edit] @TmanDW makes a very valid point about Talents and Classes here, but this patch is the base that all new weapons are balanced against.
I’m conscious I really don’t want to get into a mud flinging contest with @Incandescent or the other modders about that patch and it’s FS’s doing putting it in the game - without the modders knowledge until the patch dropped I think - so the modders do have a lot of my sympathy, especially if they’ve suffered some serious backlash over it.
I happen to also think that FK with shield-bash being virtually unkillable vis THP gen is skewed balance too, but as that’s not raw damage numbers it slides under the radar far more. Handgun (definitely in the hands of HS) requires much less skill as it bodyshots things left right and centre. Getting into the semantics of what powercreep actually is should probably include things like this too. Maybe it’s not a marked increase in straight power that is contributing to the difficulty being lessened.
Some thing I missed from the OP is that what exactly do you do with new weapons that marks them out as different? - The Shadows over Bogenhafen’s DLC launch loom still even since WoM, and FS got stomped into the floor with the ‘reskins’ that were launched in SoB to the point @Fatshark_Hedge had to step away for his own wellbeing. It’s possible that in an attempt for weapons to not be simple reskins(and get panned for it) we’re getting more outlandish designs although this still doesn’t justify Moonfire being simply brilliant at everything.
Engineer was a dummy run for heavy weapons in Darktide plain and simple. Look for the ghost of Engineer when using a heavy bolter or heavy flamer in the future.
I think @TmanDW 's comments on Talents is closer to the wide sweeping solution I’ve been musing over for a few weeks actually. Boss killers snuff out Bosses faster than an AntiArmour team can demolish a patrol. The gatekeeper should’ve been sacked long ago and the key given to a gang of 20 plague monks to look after as they might last a bit longer. IF I’m playing as Bardin alongside a GK, BH and Shade I don’t even run near a boss, they’re completely insignificant… but then there’s Nurgloth to shuffle into the mix. No fix is a quick fix at this point I don’t think.
SImply nerfing players power down to 500 instead of 650 feels like a hammer-blow with complete lack of finesse although at this time in the life of the game maybe @OrsonMaxwell is right and that it’s futile expecting anything other than Sienna new class + a multimelta and Victor new class + a sigmar orbital strike as Darktide is king and VT2 is fading fast.
Nerfing power baseline would mean the aforementioned Nurgloth would need attention, and maybe we’d resurrect the old problem of trolls regening faster than you can damage them in a clutch.
A complete rework of talent rows was happening I think as HS was the last one to get some tinkering with but then Chaos Wastes happened and so on.
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You’re talking as if Vermintide 1 didn’t have the Glaive or Falchion as DLC weapons, which were the very best melee picks at release and remained some of the very best picks at the end of the game’s life, after a fair bit of nerfing. Or as if BtU didn’t come along with Axe&Falchion, Dual Hammers, Mace&Sword & Crowbill which at release dwarfed their respective characters’ arsenals completely. Or as if WoM didn’t come along with the heavy spear, billhook and flaming flail.
You’re making a lot of I’d say wild assumptions, but here’s my own guess in regard to this whole discussion. Even if the BBB update hadn’t taken place, you’d still have gotten the same overpowered weapons with the new DLC releases.
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