Enemy ranged fire is over the top

I’ve worked my way up through the difficulties since the 17th.

And now that we’re doing Heresy, I feel like I need to say that enemy damage on las rifle and autogun squads is just too much.

I don’t want this game to be easy. But groups of las gunners have brought my entire group to a standstill for minutes at a time. There are several reasons for this.

-Each member of the group can burst fire their weapon. That’s two shots per guy that chooses to shoot. In a group of 10 to 12 las or auto gunners, even 4 of them shooting at you feels like you’re pinned by a machine gun.

-Just one las gunner on Heresy is enough to tear through your full toughness with two volleys. Multiple that by 4 and you will have your toughness stripped and your HP shredded in their very first volley. I.e, if the first time you realized they were there is when they started shooting you, then you’re already screwed.

-Their shots clip through cover. I’m not even talking the barricades, sandbags or aegis. I’m talking about their shots clipping through edges of solid walls. So when edging up close to a corner so you can maybe peek out, you start getting shot before you’ve even looked.

-Their shots are stupidly accurate. If they weren’t restricted to 2 round bursts, they’d be more deadly than reapers or gunners.

-The stagger and knockback means you can’t advance, and the suppression means you struggle to return any sort of accurate fire (and get your face shot off in the process.) Flank, you say? Cool. What about the beginning of half of the missions that are either huge open rooms, or bridge crossings? Flanking works when the terrain works. But it’s not like they only show up where there are convenient flanking paths.

I don’t know if the LOS or shot clipping can really be fixed. Vermintide is notorious for “I can hack you apart through this wall and you can do the same to me” collision detection. But for a game about guns, it’s pretty embarrassing that the edges of walls and corners and cover essentially don’t exist. But their accuracy, damage and willingness to focus fire a target can all be adjusted.

(I just played a game where the entire group was together, moving down some stairs. Everyone in the front engaged in melee. And then the las gunners spawned and all fired directly at me and I went from full health and toughness to basically dead in their very first volley.)

Auto guns don’t seem as strong as las guns in the hands of the enemy, but even then a couple of them shooting at the same target is enough to immediately strip a player’s toughness.

Like, if Heresy is this bad, WTF is Damnation like? Does the red flash before they actually shoot you strip your toughness at that point?

Malice difficulty felt like a pretty good balance. You took maybe 1 or 2 hits to your toughness from a single guy, had some left and promptly sought some cover. If you dawdle or don’t take it seriously, you get taxed. On Heresy though, it’s like if you’re getting shot by even one guy, you’re already out of toughness.

Las and autogun squads are by far the thing I fear most in Heresy now. There’s plenty of other horrible stuff like turning a corner into a crusher and a reaper at the same time, or getting dogpiled by bombers and snipers and flamers and hounds simultaneously. Those suck but are manageable. But a 12 stong las squad brings the entire group to a halt. We’re all for slow and tactical play, but getting our asses shot off when we even try to see what we’re up against is just too much.

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There is definitely more than a few things they need to sort out when it comes to the hit registration and the level of aim the AI has.

More than once I have seen things like the Bombers through their grenades through walls, such as the nurgle tree in the scanning mission as me, the fool, thought that solid objects I can’t fire through would surely block the fire grenade from reaching me and my allies.

It is obvious to me that the balancing was done with full group coordination, all talents and weapons unlocked with free pick of the traits you get for your weapons. Having done the Veteran and now working on a Zealot, it is easy for me to see the staggering difference between my level 30 gameplay experience and contribution compared to the one who now plays the Veteran and does not have his full kit available.

In the instances described here where a backline begins to gun people down, the talent which makes you extremely less likely to be targeted if standing still as the Veteran has made me an absolute unit against the ranged threats that aim at the rest of the group. I can easily tap several targets back to back if I am not constantly getting shot, and the AI hardly reacts to you if you fire at them, only if you move, when you have that feat on. Now that I have a Veteran that does not have the said feat, more often than not, the ranged backline is up to me to take out with whatever ranged weapon, or a lucky charge with the hope that it doesn’t get blocked by a single pebble in my way, or I get shot out of it before I can get close enough.

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Hello, a frequent damnation player here, it’s a whole lot worse in damnation. Imagine 20-30 ranged mobs converging on your position with a single average gunner able to strip your shields in a single volley. And this happens in every encounter. Id recommend a veteran with a good Kantreal MG12 dedicated for them, a psker with a good voidstrike staff or a zealot with a 70%+ cloud radius flamer to counter them. Coordination is key. Especially when they get too entrenched in cover then you’re in for a hell of a time. TBH I fear the ranged mob then any special

I play in heresy. Yesterday I was in a mission where we had 1 player of each class. It was a great mission. The Ogryn played defense / melee, the zealot was in close combat, the psyker was supporting the team and me, as a veteran, I was busy eliminating any ranged threat (snipers and gunners).
I had a MG XII, a great rifle. This is the first mission (it was the first time I used this rifle, and usually I play my zealot) that no sniper could damage my team or myself. I was lucky enough to succeed every times to eliminate this threat in few seconds.

I have known situatiosn where we encounter so many gunners that we cannot progress… and even sometimes die when other enemies come.
I don’t think there is a real problem with ranged enemies. The problem is, in my mind, in the team. There is the fact that, off course, we have to play in team, and if we don’t do it results by the death of the enmtire team.
But, what I mean is different. So many times I see the game that proposes 3 zealots + 1 veteran. Good luck… Or 2 ogryn + 2 zealots (not the worst). I rarely see 1 char of each class. But every class has its own purpose. And I don’t talk about the ammunitions when you are part of a team of 3 veterans.
In my mind, the problem is here. The composition of the teams done by the game itself…

But, as my experience on this difficulty is pretty recent, I won’t pretend I own the truth. This is just a contribution to this thread.

I agree with everything you say here. A lot of it boils down to team composition. OP does have valid points about shooting through cover though. In Vermintide we abused the heck out of this… but also… as I remember anyway… It was mostly melee clipping through walls. I don’t remember many cases of having to worry about rattling gunners shooting through cover.

So yeah, you’re both right. I also love when I get into these squads with one of each.

Yesterday I was in a 3 Orgyn 1 Zealot run. It was only on Malice, but we took good care of the little one.

It’s the notorious difficulty gap between malice and heresy. Give it some time, you’ll be able to routinely clear heresy after some practice.

Learn to slide

Now and again you get absolutely shredded on heresy i can only imagine damnation is worse i dont venture there atm.

It happened to me other day. Squad of enemy shooters dropped in right behind us we where all in coherency. They all targeted me dead in about 1.5 seconds.

It was so fast the stun for loosing toughness prevented any movement at all. That was only on heresy. Them turning me into swiss cheese from about 3ft away allowed the other three guys to beat them up but I was still dead. Not a good death lol. But it did make me laugh I suppose.

(I think there was a couple of specials in there either shotgunners or gunners cant remember)

Cover not acting as cover is what annoys me to no end.

Sliding being clunky and having a cooldown is another…

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Tbh idk wich would’ve worse broke ass suppression so you can’t do jackshit against fire lines or working suppression but you can’t kill the trash gunner’s cuz they are turtling beyond cover and pot shooting at you if you dose not waste ammo for countinous suppression…

Ive got a kantrel12 with clears suppression on self that I use mostly now. It helps for those moment’s a bit.

At first I thought it was a bad roll but turns out its pretty useful.

The damage would be ok if you didn’t stop moving the second you got hit.

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On Damnation it’s not a problem, if there is no ehm… malice tourists. I’ve seen a lot how people don’t use slides and dodges at all and got punished by gunners fast for that, and after they complain how it’s unfair. Vet got his higher toughness and some feats like camo expert to deal with shooters, his ability also gives suppression immunity, ogryn can knock them down with grenadier gauntlet or rumbler, psyker - head pop or different staves, zealot - push range enemies and force them go melee/burn with flamer or stun with nade or just shoot, for zealot gunners not a problem at all. Also gunners dmg reduction on curios. The biggest problem with gunners so far - they can shoot through some textures. Difficulty spike is there for sure, but once you understand how to manage with shooters it’s a faceroll, unlucky shotgunners spawn can happen tho.

I really think it’s just the obnoxious hit stuns.

On Damnation, if you ain’t watching your back, paying attention to monster closets, or just out in the open not moving, than you kinda deserve to get glassed, but once toughness breaks suddenly every shooter is a disabler.

Depending on your point of view, that’s ok for classes that are supposed to be in cover like Veteran or Psyker, but is kind of insane for Ogryn who is, you know, not really avoiding damage no matter how mlg try-hard he is.

AI accuracy is a little ridiculous, and a lean function to peek over/around cover would be nice. But the firefights do add a nice dimension, especially in an all ranged focused team. The AI suppression system makes covering firing and other tactics viable. At least in Malice>

What completely RUINS it for me is the constantly spawning enemies behind you. Half your team has to balance dancing out of cover to keep the slow trickle of trash mobs from hitting your ranged teammates. So instead of your focusing on an engaging and fun firefight, you have to constantly worry about magically appearing flanking enemies. Which also means that instead of your Zealot/Big Boi rushing forward while a veteran provides covering fire, you have to stick around to protect against flankers, partly negating the point of strengths of some classes.

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^ This.