Right now they are way easier than monster in horde, most often they can be killed in less than 30 s because they stand a lot in one place and any headshot based character can just obliterate them, enabling specials is ease way to spice them up a little
Well, I am not so sure. Specials would make the fight more difficult for sure, but it would turn it into just yet another event, and would draw attention away from the lord.
I would rather have them do more different attacks that scale with difficulty level, more moves and STAGES. that would definitely spice the things up.
14 Likes
Specials would turn boss fights into a clusterf**k. Like think about how annoying multiple blightstomers and other disablers, along with the constantly spawning fodder mobs and elites would be. Just no.
11 Likes
Well , specials could lead to some problems i agree but ~ overall the lord fights are just too simple and usually boring once you get to know the game.
FS is going over all the maps they said (and i think they do it because of the upcoming versus mode aswell) and it would be nice to take a look at the current Lord fights and spice em up a little. I agree with @Mentis here. Some ideas to improve the lord fights would be nice ā¦ even some random behaviour patterns so not every fight is the same would be sweet.
I donāt agree.
Sure, lord maps give two loot dicesā¦ But they arenāt special maps like FoW. The difficulty should be more or less as the other maps (indeed also the reward is pretty the same).
There are some events like Fort and Conv that are still broken (and Fatshark said they will nerf them)ā¦ But apart this, the maps (lord ones included) are balanced.
3 Likes
Not talking about balance here. Its about the replayabilty and fun of the overall experience. Why add in special Lord fights if you just sweep them away like nothing special at all ? Its not even possible to talk about general balance of maps due to the various lenght of the maps and the layout with some maps having more narrow corridors and some having more open areas.
So its the very nature of the design that some maps and areas are more difficult to handle than others. And if you have maps with special boss encounters like lords , make it a decent experience instead of just sweeping them away and move on. The Balance in terms of difficulty like legend or cata only determine the overall health and damage in combat. You can not balance map-layouts with the difficulty settings other than controlling the number of enemy spawns.
So i dont see a reason to make Lord fights boring in order to streamline them with the easier maps in the pool. For me , difficulty settings are meant to control the overall combat difficulty , not the map layouts and design of special events.
I wasnāt answering youā¦ but anyway, in part, I disagree even with you.
I agree about specials, they would make the fight boring. But, for the rest, we arenāt talking about opinions, but about how the game should work.
If we have a system that āchoosesā for us randomly a map from a āpoolā, ed every map gives the same reward, these maps must give us the same challenge. Otherwise the our possibility of victory would be linked to the luck. Itās enough to think about first months Skittergate (or Skippergate), when the majority of players skipped it (because it was an high risk map without high reward).
You right, āthanksā features of the maps (design, length, puzzles), itās impossible to have a perfect balanceā¦ but this isnāt a good reason to aggravate the situation buffing Lords.
For this reason lord maps must be hard as every other maps. Rather they are above average. Some other events are just broken, like Fort and Convā¦ indeed Fatshark said they will nerf them.
2 Likes
This is why there is a special reward for chosing quickplay in the first place. Its in there so people actually do quickplay and not chose to always take the shortest and easiest maps in the pool in order to grind for gear.
Deciding for the extra reward but getting a random map is a tradeoff , meaning that players have to deal with the various leghts and difficulties of maps that have always been there but getting that quickplay bonus in the end. Its totally impossible due to layout/design to make all maps give us the same challenge even if the reward is the same in the end.
The main question is ā¦ do you prefer streamlining over replayability ? And im clearly for the replayability even if it means some maps will be harder to do in general. But that doesnt change the overall difficulty settings of combat. Also maps with boss encounters provide additional loot dice , enabling different approaches. On Skittergate for example , you can usually go with just 1 grim and still get the highest reward due to the high number of loot dice in this map.
In general , too much streamlining is a terrible design foundation for a game where you play a fixed set of maps over and over again. Bringing them all closer together in terms of time , event design , layout and encounters you will hurt the replayability that is the very core of this game.
Lords are too easy normally when the team has a weapon/potion/career combo that can melt them really quickly. These things should be balanced more before changing lord fights.
They are still too ease even without nuking class, mostly because they are 90% of time alone, have long standing in place doing nothing stuff or just weak (rasknitt). Ironically I would say spinemangler is hardest because he have a lot of trash coming for you in small arena, but still he have standing position that he dont even move head to much (with long range weapon like halberd spears etc you can attack him without activating his attack)
The QP exists because if I choose a specific map, I can choose too a specific equip. An example? If I play Into the Nest, power vs chaos is useless. If I play Warcamp, I know that I must have armor piercing weaponsā¦ etc, etc. This is the reason because Fatshark has removed the possibility to change equip after the map is already started (as you could do in Vermintide 1). Indeed deeds havenāt QP bonus.
But I repeat: this doesnāt mean that a map can be much harder than another. Moreover loot dices arenāt an higher reward: simply more bosses you fight, more loot dices you gain. For example, playing a no-lords map, you could fight two bosses and gain the same Into the Nest loot dices.
Why not both? As said, in a game that chooses randomly a map from a pool (with the same reward), maps must be balanced (or we will have another time the problem of players skipping specific maps)ā¦ but this doesnāt mean that currently Lord fights are bad. I find them very balanced and funny. For example Iām doing āfinal eventsā Cataclysm challenges (I donāt know how call them :P). In Warcamp the lord must charge toward 5 CWs. Well, I did that challenge into 2-3 minutes, because the arena was literally full of CWs. Or during Skittergate (but I think that challenge is bugged), I was fighting against 20 units (between Monks and SVs) more trash enemies.
To conclude: that maps with same reward, chosen randomly, must be balanced, imho itās an objective fact that is valid to most similar games. That currently Lords are boring or easier than other final events (except Fort and Conv)ā¦ I strongly think that itās falseā¦ bur everyone can have his opinion.
No they dont need to be balanced to play same way, otherwise we would have recolor of one map
Lord fights in Twitch mode can be loads of fun, or a complete instant wipe depending upon what you get. Simply enabling any specials isnāt a very effective way of doing it. Twitch wipes for me have been vs Ribspreader and getting WWI style gassed by poison globes with nowhere to go, Blightstormers with nowhere to go and general annoyingness like hook rats spam.
Add in the frustration of getting wiped at the end of a map to really make lord fights annoying.
HAVING SAID THATā¦ watching a BH rip Rasknit to bits in seconds in no fun either.
?!.. following your reasoning, also buffing Lords, we would still have only 4 different maps (lords ones) and 14 ārecoloredā maps.
With ābalancedā I mean they must offer the same level of difficulty, not the same type. Already now every Lord needs a different strategy.
1 Like
Perteks, you need to play QP once in a while. Your definition of āeasyā does NOT represent the majority of players.
2 Likes
Enabling normal Special spawns could imbalance the Lord fights pretty easily. When you already have a small arena, and then have to evade a Blightstorm or two and an Assassin, the game goes down the well quite quick. But I also agree that the Lord fights could use a little bit of spicing up, even though a while ago they got some rebalancing.
So yeah, a limited amount of Specials could be dropped into the pools for additional enemies in the Lord fights. Chosen to be compatible with the arena, of course - a Blightstormer is likely to be too disruptive in any of them, and for (probably) most teams Rasknitt is difficult enough already. But an Assassin or a Flamer every now and then could bring some added difficulty and need to pay attention.
I play QP all time,Lords are joke they are boring to point of that solo monster is more interesting because if you took to long there is gonna be hordes and specials on your back. Qp fail on lords donāt happens mostly because anybody alone can stall enough or just outright kill lord, they are quite slow and have way more ease attack pattern (maybe outside Bodvarr some of his attack can be quite fast but its only trigger when you are very close to him)
And no right now some maps are inherently harder than rest without monster etc, because of mechanics (hunger in the dark is very good example when ppl lack common sense its quite often wipe)
Blightstormer and kobe rats would be hard on budyvar and spa stic rat mostly because their spawn could be quite absurd (blinking outside of killable arena or just throwing from there) but thats would be need to tested, outside of those 2 I donāt think they could broke fight at all. Gutter runners would be less of problem mostly because all lords have FF and they would just free you out of his clutches.
Yeah, thatās gonna be a no from me dawg.
Lord Fights lack some dynamics, yeah.
I kind of like the thought of only specific specials spawning, like skarrik has disablers, bubblebutt has blightstormers after 2nd phase, ribspreader gets leeches and more maulers/ warriors. Wizard rat gets shooty specials. And Blightreaper finally gets a lord to fight.
By adding specials youāre discussing adding the āunjust wipeā to the very end of a map. People will get infuriated and quit the maps again, like Skippergate after launch. Convocation and Braksenbruke on Legend I already see people quit QP as soon as they join due to the Finale.
There just needs to be some wider variety of attacks of the Lords. Bodvar going into a more fierce axe swinging mode, Skarrit Grabbing someone and attempting to rip their spine out (like a Spawn Grab) and Burblespew needs to leech players or something. He could cast some kind of health drain on players, or cover them in nuregle slime like a troll vomit. Thereās loads of stuff actually in the game that could be adapted.
The Gatekeeper is the weakest mini-lord/boss as he is so often pummeled into the floor so fast that the spawn doesnāt even get to swing a single punch.