Dwarf Shield Push Follow-Up Attack Isn't Helpful

Hi Fatshark, please read this (I also did one on the steam forums so apologies if you’re seeing this twice)

tl;dr

Dwarf’s Shield Push chain attack (the follow up that you do if you hold the push input), isn’t really better than anything else you would do after a shield push. More importantly, it is actually a liability to even do it. It happens too quickly after a push, leaves you open, interferes with your rhythm, and generally whiffs due to Dwarf’s short range and the attack’s own faster speed.

I’m not asking for a buff, but rather anything else other than this useless option that is actually more trouble than it’s worth. Invulnerability on the attack might be the easiest way to improve it, but I do not like the attack itself very much. I think it would be nice if it had high cleave but low damage. I think a cleave hit on three base horde rats would be good, killing at least two. When the attack hits the next level of regular rats without shields, I think a kill of the 1 and another single 0 would be good, with at least a stagger of one more 0. I think it makes sense to have the attack mostly useless against any kind of armour (including small shields) to preserve balance.


Currently I see two uses to a dwarf for this attack.

First is when you are walling a dense horde of at least two or more waves and a push won’t cc enough and any kind of offense could result in an instant down. I think it fails in this case because of the basic fact that this attack leaves you open. It’s far better to backdash immediately following the shield push and do anything else, let alone not dropping your shield at all.

Second is for those times when as a Dwarf you are essentially trapped behind your shield because you have enemies at different distances from you, and clockwise positions. Due to the Dwarf’s high aggro and large hitbox, lowering your shield at these times to do anything can mean an instant ding in the time it takes you to carry out whatever action you were taking. The follow up attack’s whiff tendency and bad rhythm usually means a wasted push, which leads to more blocking or another push and burning more stamina.

I thought that this attack was safer so I started using it more this past couple days but today I got hit each time while doing it twice within a short time, and downed. There is just no good use for this attack. It’s just far better to use a push to set up stronger initiative and better positioning for anything else.

I think you could use this attack to solve the major problem with Dwarf which is that doing anything with it carries very high risk without strong initiative or when enemies have bad positioning to you or combinations of both. Other classes which can just stay relatively safe behind their light attacks, have much more mobility, smaller hitboxes, and less aggro don’t really have this problem.

Shield Kruber can operate with more freedom than shield Dwarf. I’m guessing this is due to Dwarf’s naturally larger aggro passive and hitbox being added to the one incoming with the shield.

Kruber’s Sword and Shield is a fun weapon to play with. The weapon as a whole is very nuanced, fairly effective when built and used well I think (still building Kruber), and just a blast to play. That has an excellent push follow-up which fits perfectly into that weapon and is a good fit within his moveset. Given Sword and Shield Kruber’s decreased effectiveness against armour from Dwarf’s, I think it’s good that his push follow-up is helpful with armour. It’s also acceptable against creeps due to its range as it doesn’t whiff, but I don’t think it’s made for that.

Sword and Shield Kruber is much more effective against hordes than Dwarf, due to a combination of his speed, range, decreased aggro and hitbox. It’s good that his push follow-up helps with with what he’s weaker at.

I think Dwarf should have the same treatment. Make his push follow-up useful against multi-enemy situations.

Hammer and Shield has this same problem but I don’t think it really matters because that weapon plays differently and you mostly just spam heavies all the time.

I haven’t played much of Kruber Mace and Shield but its follow-up looks like it might just be another like Dwarf’s. I don’t think it matters though because again, like Hammer and Shield, Mace and Shield is played differently and is just about cc.

Just to clear this up:
The dwarf does not have short range. Everyone’s range is about equal, with every weapon’s range being about equal, safe for spears/halberds.

Due to the Dwarf’s high aggro and large hitbox

I am not aware of that, where did you read it?

Shield Kruber can operate with more freedom than shield Dwarf. […] Kruber’s Sword and Shield is a fun weapon to play with. The weapon as a whole is very nuanced, fairly effective when built and used well I think (still building Kruber), and just a blast to play.

Shield kruber is something you basically never see, because neither of his shield weapons is any good against armored and are both overshadowed by their unshielded counterparts. The only one that actually sees any significant play is the axe+shield, as it loses a lot less effectiveness compared to the one-handed and might even be superior in offensive potential as you have can spam your shield bash for crowd control.
Also just a sidenote, ironbreaker is much tankier than any of krubers careers, i would say don’t hide behind your shield. You’ve got plenty of tankiness already.

Hammer and Shield has this same problem but I don’t think it really matters because that weapon plays differently and you mostly just spam heavies all the time.
I haven’t played much of Kruber Mace and Shield but its follow-up looks like it might just be another like Dwarf’s. I don’t think it matters though because again, like Hammer and Shield, Mace and Shield is played differently and is just about cc.

Nobody really ever uses hammer+shield (which is the same weapon as mace+shield). The one-handed version is just much better.

Hey thanks

Not sure about that myself. At the very least, there must be differences between weapon types as you say, but I am skeptical that all similar-classed weapons have standard effective ranges across all player classes. If this is true, then perhaps the shortness in range one feels playing Dwarf is caused by the increased threat from the larger hitbox. I don’t believe that to be the case though, as in practice, Dwarf feels shorter range.

I am not aware of that, where did you read it?

I did not read it anywhere as there is so little hard information this game makes available; my opinions come purely from practice. Do you play a lot of Dwarf? Playing Dwarf, I am convinced he has a larger hitbox and a larger aggro zone. I also strongly believe, though am not certain, that shields convey increases to the starting values of these areas on their own.

Shield kruber is something you basically never see, because neither of his shield weapons is any good against armored and are both overshadowed by their unshielded counterparts. The only one that actually sees any significant play is the axe+shield, as it loses a lot less effectiveness compared to the one-handed and might even be superior in offensive potential as you have can spam your shield bash for crowd control.
Also just a sidenote, ironbreaker is much tankier than any of krubers careers, i would say don’t hide behind your shield. You’ve got plenty of tankiness already.

While it’s not anti-armour, it is serviceable against armour. Kruber cannot move his shield around as fast or easily as Dwarf (makes sense), so spamming is suitable less, but Bash>charge2>push>reset, or bash>charge2>push>push follow-up are both good against armour, especially when Sword/Shield Kruber Mercenary can be built to crit something like 80% of the time on his heavies and something like 40%-50% on his lights. I did some testing with the 1h Sword only and it just doesn’t crit as much. Sword/Shield Kruber is a crit monster. I think that him being less effective against armour is acceptable when he is more effective against hordes as opposed to Axe+Shield Dwarf.

Nobody really ever uses hammer+shield (which is the same weapon as mace+shield). The one-handed version is just much better.

When I say Hammer+Shield, I mean Dwarf. Mace+Shield for Kruber obviously. I haven’t played a lot of Mace+Shield Kruber as I’m still building him. In VT1 though Mace+Shield was one of the best CC weapons in the game.

While I think Axe+Shield is pretty effective and fun to use outside of the case I made about its danger and the weakness of push follow-up, I think shields in general could use some attention if they’re really played so little.

Just try it out in the keep, they really all do. Even when you have the greatsword vs 1h sword or things like that.

I did not read it anywhere as there is so little hard information this game makes available; my opinions come purely from practice. Do you play a lot of Dwarf? Playing Dwarf, I am convinced he has a larger hitbox and a larger aggro zone.

Having played a lot of Ironbreaker and Slayer (although little R.vet), i can’t say i see either of this as being the case.

especially when Sword/Shield Kruber Mercenary can be built to crit something like 80% of the time on his heavies and something like 40%-50% on his lights. I did some testing with the 1h Sword only and it just doesn’t crit as much. Sword/Shield Kruber is a crit monster.

That’s not how crits work. I am not aware of any boosts the shield+sword gets you and even weapons that do get one (i.e. keris dual weapons or crossbow), they gain 10%. Critting 40+% of the time would be insane and testing it out myself, i absolutely cannot reproduce your results.

When I say Hammer+Shield, I mean Dwarf. Mace+Shield for Kruber obviously. I haven’t played a lot of Mace+Shield Kruber as I’m still building him. In VT1 though Mace+Shield was one of the best CC weapons in the game.

The point was that mace+shield is just a reskin of hammer+shield. They are identical, talking about one is talking about the other.

Dwarven shield/axe push-attack is one of the best in the game. I can’t say the same for the shield/hammer, but for the shield/axe, it’s the primary wave-busting tool when your team takes up formation.

I’d say the only push-attack that’s better than the Dwarven shield/axe, is the elven spear, which ranks as about the best in game.

Shield/weapon settings have a bit different engagement distances and tactics than other weapons. Usually people complaining about how gimped the shield/weapon sets in game don’t really understand that fact.

1 Like

It’s actually accurate. I tried to test it just now. I was easily able to set up a situation where Kruber was still hitting with some room to spare on his 1h Sword+Shield and Dwarf whiffed every time on his 1h Axe+Shield.

At first I just started attacking at the limits of the range, and I found out from this that the hitboxes have some irregularity to them and you can get to a distance and view orientation that can cause some attacks to whiff but not others. That seems pretty straightforward but in practice it was a little surprising in how pronounced it was. I had my first swing whiff but my other two would hit. If I moved the mouse just slightly, the second would hit but third would whiff. Stuff like that.

Then I took the training dummy and bought it over to a wall and threw it until it was getting near the limits of the attack range at a glance. I switched to Dwarf, backed up to the wall, and whiffed every single time. Changed back to Kruber, and was hitting again.

Having played a lot of Ironbreaker and Slayer (although little R.vet), i can’t say i see either of this as being the case.

Can’t give you anything more to go on.

That’s not how crits work. I am not aware of any boosts the shield+sword gets you and even weapons that do get one (i.e. keris dual weapons or crossbow), they gain 10%. Critting 40+% of the time would be insane and testing it out myself, i absolutely cannot reproduce your results.

What do you mean that’s not how crits work? That’s totally how crits work in my experience. I don’t mean the game is telling me I crit 40%-50% of the time, as in showing those numbers to me somewhere. I wrote that as an estimate of what I am observing. I have the extra crit talent picked, I have the Merc crit passive, I have 5% on my trinket and 3.6% on my Sword and shield. This has me getting crits 80% of the time on 1h Sword+Shield heavies.

The point was that mace+shield is just a reskin of hammer+shield. They are identical, talking about one is talking about the other.

I did some testing now and you’re right. The lights seem exactly the same. When I started testing, there was less difference between them. At first they seemed the same to me. Once I started tweaking the distance though, I was able to have Dwarf start whiffing his 2nd when Kruber was still hitting all . After that, Dwarf would whiff all when Kruber could still hit 1 and 3. Finally, Dwarf and Kruber both can still barely hit 3 when they whiff 1 and 2, but Dwarf gets to that point before Kruber even loses 1.

So yeah these weapons seem the same at least on lights, but Dwarf’s range separates them.

I really like the follow-up push attack on the shield and axe. This is one of my favorite weapons and have blasted through many many legend runs with it. Works rather well against shield vermin, too.

On really puny targets, like slave rats, you may end up knocking them outside of your follow-up range. However, that is not what that attack pattern is really good for. It works wonders on armored units, keeping them stunlocked while you chop them. For slave rats, try a shield punch (charge 1) or some AE range weapons.

And i did the same, and both started whiffing around the same time. Both started missing hits out of their combos before either of them whiffed completely.
And that is assuming the dwarfs lower stature isn’t making it worse, which with the ultra wonky hitboxes i can’t rule out.

What do you mean that’s not how crits work? That’s totally how crits work in my experience. I don’t mean the game is telling me I crit 40%-50% of the time, as in showing those numbers to me somewhere. I wrote that as an estimate of what I am observing. I have the extra crit talent picked, I have the Merc crit passive, I have 5% on my trinket and 3.6% on my Sword and shield. This has me getting crits 80% of the time on 1h Sword+Shield heavies.

Running the exact same setup except with a 4% sword and shield, i cannot reproduce your results. I am simply not getting 80% crits.

So yeah these weapons seem the same at least on lights, but Dwarf’s range separates them.

Same here as above, i cannot reproduce your results. If there is a range disparity, it’s not really large enough to matter most of the time, since i am having far larger disparity between the individual strikes and crosshair placement than any difference between kruber/bardin (and that is with bardin’s shorter stature, which might even be messing with this).

And as a sidenote, some non-sense stuff: For me, the 1st hit would always be the first to whiff, with the 2nd being the one that kept hitting the longest, although often the 2nd would whiff and the 3rd would hit.

I did some fooling around with it again and I did overestimate the magnitude of the range difference. I must have gotten lucky with my placement of the doll the first time, which was when I tested SS vs AS. It was still there for me and still larger than HS vs. MS though.

Running the exact same setup except with a 4% sword and shield, i cannot reproduce your results. I am simply not getting 80% crits.

If 80% is wrong, it has to be at least 60%. I crit more than I don’t on heavies. However there is one exception. If you spam shield, and Kruber takes a bit longer to do it than Dwarf because his shield takes longer to reset to block and possibly also to charge the attack (though not sure about that one), the magic crits seem to shut off. I had to go 1>2>3.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu