If you want all builds to be viable, then you should buff the weak ones instead of nerfing the strong ones. Do you also think using Bubble, Purgatus, and Chorus is a form of cheating?
why buffing things that are just fine? imagine buffing things to make on par with the most broken stuff, tiān na no sense
It will be easier to nerf the overpowered stuff and then bring down the difficulty of Havoc so it stays balanced. It will just be simpler than trying to buff every single weapon and ability to the same level of the Dueling Sword, Purgatus Staff, Shout with Gold Toughness, Scrier’s Gaze etc.
So you see, nerfing the strong isn’t really balancing — it’s just the easier way to do it
It is balancing though, just easier. If we want to go by that logic then buffing every other weapon isn’t balancing either. But it is. Both options are I just believe one will take much less time and effort.
But that’s Fatshark’s job: to do their best to achieve balance, not just simply nerfing or buffing.
I don’t understand your point. If nerfing and buffing is not balancing, then what is?
Because that just doesn’t really work.
So toward roads that change (“fix”) the balance, either you deal with the outliers (where here most are too strong, but a few are too weak too), or pick an outlier and bring the rest to it.
But balancing in a vacuum is easy, but here it’s a whole system that need to be minded for:
Path A: Buff to the outliers
- FS buff weapons
- Players get “stronger” and are more able to go to higher difficulties
- Group Havoc complain that there isn’t enough hard content
- FS need to buff enemies
- Other people complain that it is a blanket nerf (as by comparison players got weakers)
- New outliers need to be buffed again
- Increase the number of strong enemies
- Hit the enemy limit faster and increase complaints about Crusher Spams and simili
- Group Havoc complain that there are people in Havoc that are being carried by their gears rather than their skills (Which is something should not be taken into account)
- Players get “stronger” and are more able to go to higher difficulties
Path B: Nerf the outliers into line
- FS nerf certain weapons and talents to be weaker and more in line with the rest
- Meta Players get weaker
- Players complains
- Common Players get weaker
- Players complains
- Allow for nerfs of enemies
- Decrease number of strong enemy
- Alleviate Engine strain (Noise engine), and stop the common complaint of Crusher spam
- Allow for more impactful Groaner/Poxwalker hordes
- Decrease number of strong enemy
- Meta Players get weaker
Simply nerfing or buffing isn’t real balance. It only leads to either no one using something if it’s nerfed too hard, or everyone using it if it’s buffed too much. I mean is you need to balance the two
So your point is that to fix Darktide’s balance you need both nerfs and buffs?
Yes, I think achieving balance requires both buffs and nerfs
Okay, I get it now. I believe there’s a misunderstanding between you and me (and other people like Heretical_Cactus though I shouldn’t really speak for others as I don’t know what they think, only what they write).
I also am of the thought that both things are needed, but that was never said by me because I was under the impression that you were against any nerfs in general. To me, you came across as someone who just wants buffs, so I laser-focused on the topic of whether buffing everything or nerfing everything is easier. But we both know that doing just one or the other is harder than doing both.
So let’s clear this out right here:
We both want the balance to be fixed with nerfs and buffs. That much is clear. Now the conversation should go towards what is it specifically that we want to see nerfed or buffed (if that wasn’t already said as I didn’t follow this thread).
I, for one, would like to see nerfs to the things like:
- Dueling Sword,
- Purgatus Staff,
- Shout with Gold Toughness,
- Scrier’s Gaze,
- Uncanny Strike,
- Soulblaze,
- Elite enemies spawns.
Buffs to the things like:
- Heavy Sword,
- Braced Autoguns,
- Vigilant Autoguns,
- Shredder Autopistols,
- Cleavers,
- Enemy Ogryns - stagger resistance, impact of their hits (each hit, if blocked. takes away more stamina),
- New, more complex and challenging attacks for enemies on higher difficulties.
Rework to things like:
- Carapace armor - make it get brittled and slowly break the more hits it takes,
- Bulwark’s shield - break the Bulwarks guard - doing the stagger animation, opening him to attacks - after enough hits are done on his shield in quick succession.
What did you call me???
Only buff, never nerf!
You heard it here first, folks!
Edit: I read your more recent responses and I think those were much better worded.
Today’s balance issues in Darktide: elite and Carapace spam and etc, are the result of Fatshark’s bad way combat how OP the player characters have grown (Fatshark’s fault btw) and that has resulted in a significantly worse game, unfortunately.
I basically agree with all of your suggestions. for Shout with Gold Toughness, I think it should stay as is. Based on my experience in Havoc 40, its at most 1.7/min, I think this is a reasonable range
Well, I disagree here. Golden Toughness is a very powerful tool that allows enemies to not damage your health through your toughness. Because there are talents that reduce the cooldown of abilities, it allows players to use Shout a lot, too much in my opinion.
If Golden Toughness will never be removed then I’d wish for the cooldown to be increased. That’s actually a sentiment that I wish for all abilities. I think many of them shouldn’t be capable of being used as much as 1.7 times per minute.
While there is an argument to be made that it makes Havoc easier and I bet it being able to be used as much as it does, saved many players a number of times. But the thing is I don’t want the balance to be centered around the Havoc gamemode. Auric is what I want to be the focus here.
And if that were to be the case in the future I know that then current Havoc would become close to impossible and would definitely warrant a decrease to its difficulty to make it playable, like decreasing enemy density, for instance.
Auric first, Havoc second.
It’s funny that no matter how much you push the pro power creep people, none of them can ever explain why nerfs are a bad thing
Nothing personal m8, i was merely giving an example of a balance take that could be perceived as destructive and yours was the one that was stuck in my head because of the reception it received despite the extreme position it took
Come now, don’t be modest. For this half abandoned loon asylum of a board 12 is a lot 
And it finally did it for me, convinced me once and for all that this board shouldn’t be allowed to balance two lego pieces on top of each other without strict supervision, let alone the game…
Nerfs are perfectly fine and legitimate way to go about balancing a game. My singular and chief problems with Darktide and nerfs is the people that are pushing for it!
For me its the contempt, slight regard and having zero desire for the lowest common denominator to balance the game on me.
If this board didn’t exist, the game had only reddit and Discord and if i never meet with the locals i would be far far more receptive to calls for nerfs
1.7 per minute is roughly the result you get when you use the skill as soon as it’s available, after applying all cooldown reductions. I think this is a very reasonable outcome. This is a team game — I don’t think a group protection skill that’s available once a minute is that overpowered. This isn’t a turn-based game; enemies are spawning constantly, and mistakes will happen. This kind of skill is exactly what helps relieve pressure on the team
I base my opinion of Vermintide 2, where the spawns are not spammy as they are in Darktide. The Shout of Mercenary class has 90s cooldown. There are also no talents that allow players to spam it - there’s only a talent that decreases the general cooldown by 20%, but that’s it.
It makes it so that ability is more of a panic button rather than something you must activate the moment it’s available.
And that’s how I’d wish for many abilities in Darktide to be. Of course, as of now, the enemy spam stands in a way of implementing this and still having a balanced experience.
Many balance changes have the same issue, actually. The enemy spam would have to be decreased in the same update as many nerfs, buffs and reworks are applied.