I applaud some well thought out discussion points, even though I personally don’t have too much of an opinion on the matter.
I agree with other people saying we need less rending, not more, but calling for other classes to have less rending in an Ogryn thread would be a bit off the path, and the argument that it’s like the Vet Talent, but weaker, is a valid one. Bleed isn’t what it once was.
Personally, I consider Pulverise a vehicle to grant the bleed-based damage resistance.
Crunch! might be a case of “is actually kind of ok, but feels bad”, similar to how I consider Weapon Specialist.
Having a gradual increase might make it more accessible.
Maybe “up to 25% power and first target damage”?
It’s been cool so see some discussion on this thread!
I made some various changes to the OP and I’ll quote the larger ones here: Threat related ideas:
Stay close! aura replacement
Crunch! stuff
So I originally assumed brittle and rending didn’t work on DoT effects at all, but that was wrong. I came to this incorrect conclusion from testing the Infernao Force Staff’s Penetrating Flame blessing earlier and the brittle wasn’t buffing soulblaze damage. That might be something soulblaze specific or it might just be a unique bug.
They just got nerfed from 25 → 20% toughness, which I’m already not a fan of. I’d say that they are essential, but also a great source of enjoyment for playing the big man. I’d truly hate to see them made weaker.
eh, rending as a stat is only really good if you have a lot of it and going from 10 to 15 % isn’t that.
I’m not sure what value it would have to be to be worth picking but probably much higher than 15%. It also depends on the weapons ofc but would you pick it over onslaught if it was below 25%?
Putting this at the top since this is the most important part. I wouldn’t want a nerf per se but a rework. These talents are a big part of why Ogryn is both strong and relies on heavy attacks. Putting confident strike on a weapon is a horrible comprimise, as your weapon only gets two blessings while you have 30 talent points to spend so it’s a huge waste. They need to be changed to something that allows Ogryns to regenerate toughness in melee combat but not rely on heavy attacks. I don’t really have any ideas atm for what to replace it with. Maybe go the VT2 route and make it toughness on staggered enemies in melee.
It would be fine. I think it’s to synergize with Delight in Destruction so you stop charging in the middle of a horde and get max DR. I don’t feel strongly either way.
I don’t really notice a lack of range on it. I never take Big Lungs with it, only Valuable Distraction. If you are getting in the thick of things and being aggressive you can still taunt entire packs of melee elites with it which is all you need.
While I don’t think this would be useful it would be neat.
This is the only way to make Crunch usable, no matter what buff it gives.
100% support this. Would make it way more consistent on Rippers.
I wouldn’t miss it but I would much rather have 5% health than a waste of 25% threat.
True and interesting suggestions. The increased toughness regen from all sources by that much might be too strong however.
Instead of adding some more threat in the tree like you suggested earlier, just have this talent be the threat talent if people want it. Could even have scale off of coherency to up to 100% threat if you wanted.
I do not want this to happen, keep all the trash bottom tree talent nodes with the trash keystone.
While this would be helpful to Heavy Hitter it would remove the only current light attack synergy for Ogryn. I think the change would be fine, but I would like to see a new way to get Heavy Hitter stacks that allows light attacks to trigger it.
FNP as a concept is like this for melee builds imo. It’s better for ranged Builds than Lucky Bullet. But yes killing stuff will always be a better defense than tanking hits, so FNP will always lose out to Heavy Hitter in melee. Maybe if the lower stacks you got the higher damage or something similar you did would make it more competitive.
I think it’s fine where it is. Another reason Ogryn is centered around heavy attacks, but honestly it would be fine remaining a heavy attack only talent imo.
There really needs to be a sidegrade option for rock that replaces it with an ogryn canned ration. Alt-fire lets the ogryn eat for a toughness buff and a bit of health, downside is it doesn’t regen anymore so you gotta grab pickups for it. Maybe box sidegrade instead if people cry too much
nobody is saying it, but it’s the sort of thing ogryn NEEDS.
Gave this a read through, overall I’m a fan of any buff to Ogryn (as I’ve like…never had fun on them. They always just feel so…incapable, thanks to the existence of specials and everything they do being so slow so being ‘reactive’ to them is basically impossible, and you are just so deeply reliant on your team saving you over and over because of that).
I don’t think I see to many issues personally, though what has me commenting is your burst limiter idea. I fell this has the reverse effect of making it completely worthless on the stubber/likely the new stubber they are coming out with in a week or so, as a timed effect would naturally happen a lot less than this.
But, I do really like the concept, so I feel a form of ‘this timer is reduced by X% per range weapon hit’ would be rather nice, I feel dropping it by a second might be a bit much but like having the timer skip down so you get a good few procs of it with the stubber would be good, while still allowing stuff like the rumbler to always start a volley with a free shot and get to more either by waiting or firing off an extra shot or too.
That, or having the above effect but have the timer be longer, then drop it by a second each it. So like, 30 second timer but it’s dropped by 1 second each hit, so a stubber will still see it multiple times a mag but the kickback won’t suddenly be firing for free (assuming each enemy hit is considered a unique hit). Might make the rumbler work well with it too getting it knocked down to 20 seconds off a big explosion, and lean into blast away.
(personally i hate everything “magic” in about every game i get the option weilding 100kg warhammers into peoples faces, so psyker could be the most op class i’d never touch him regardless)
but going as far as writing the class off based on personal experience reads just weird given the fact i clutch and carry with my ogryn on a daily basis, scrape people off the floor and usually have done about the most of “everything” (pickups, stuff operated, dmg, kills, etc) without going down myself.
interest prerequisited of course, you could try different loadout and most of all a much different approach, since 95% of the time as ogryn i act instead of react.
for example i dont wait for a vet to deal with gunners.
instead i dodge slide into them and pickaxe 'em according to their placing in front of me giving them basically no time to deal ranged damage or at least not as a cohesive cluster.
bit weird to explain in text, if interested i got plenty gameplay material that shows such example much easier.
main thing being, ogryn is far from helpless if you take charge, grab the situation by the balls and shape it so you win the encounter.
toughness regen alone makes it hard to go down if enough horde scrub are around for refill upon kill
Regarding Trample description am I the only one bothered by their occasional use of the term “base” damage despite it being identical to any other damage boost and stacking additively with such? It really makes it sound like it’s a separate multiplier or something I don’t understand this inconsistency.
My goodness… As a Path of Exile player, a game that has an insane amount of different stats along with very consistent keywords and terminology, it drives me nuts.
“base damage” “replenishment” Darktide is really bad with this.
While I like some of the ideas and think some others would be bad, I think what Ogryn ACTUALLY needs is a full talent tree structure overhaul with many new choices and different viable melee builds. Right now you’re locked into basically two paths, three if you’re generous and count an edge case. There isn’t actually a melee build that’s viable without bleed, and there isn’t actually a ranged build you can do without PBB (which locks you out of bleed).
It may be intentional that he’s super simple to build for, but it also really sucks from a variety perspective. Zealot for example has various different builds, some suited more for each melee wep, some less, and some are just as good on multiple different builds. Ogryn has nothing like that. It’s bleed or go home. That’s ogryns melee builds summed up.
Also, his base toughness could honestly be boosted. Someone mentioned it in another thread, it’s weird Ogryn just has two mandatory +25 toughness nodes at the top. Why not build one in and let him have some more variety with the actual talents a bit?
There is definitely more buffs than nerfs on this thread as of currently. Most of the buffs mentioned are towards under performing talents though. A lot of buffs are more focused on quality than power too.
Ogryn is a strong class in its current state, but there is a very big power inbalance in which talents are strong vs. weak. That’s the point of this thread entirely. Maybe I should adjust some of my recommendations and tone down a few numbers though…
Except feel no pain and crunch, I am really not sure of everything else that was proposed.
Crunch cause what Flawless proposed make sense and would not make it more powerful, but more useful.
Feel no pain, cause as it is actually, nobody uses it. So it would not make it more powerful (as nobody uses it) but just viable.
But asking more rending (something that can break a lot of things in this game), more damage to a node that is really good etc. here I feel this is too much.
Especially cause Ogryns are far from a weak class.
As an example, the +25 toughness. They are well placed. And I take them all the time (as now I tend to go toughness more than health in all classes). You want to buff largely the toughness of Ogryn. That’s really a far too strong buff, especially when you consider how many ways an ogryn can get to refresh its toughness or increase it (weapons and also talents). This is not minor buff, but a major one you ask.
These nodes force you to use 4 talent points to get them. But that’s balanced. You choose more survivability, this has a cost (4 points).
You ask to combine two talents and giving it both toughness regen. Again, a big major buff.
As I said, you ask too many buffs. If fatshark would implement all these changes, the Ogryn would be above OP.
