Could we not nerf Zealot more?

[Darth_Angeal]

@Valaska

So the ENTIRE game has to be NOTHING but Kantrael, Agripinaa, and Auto Shredder. Sometimes the boltgun.

Now imagine i played what you probably would call “off-meta” since day one.

• Psyker with FS and shredder, when all claimed shredder is useless and guns suck on Psyker
• Zealot with axe / evi + shredder, again when all said shredder is useless, which is suddenly not a thing since the blessingspatch.
• Vet with revolver just because i can.

Yes it was fun to me and i actually dislike what happens to shredder. From a balanced weapon to a broken one thanks to a handful of blessings.
And guess what? I´ve cleared damnation with all those useless tools before the blessings-patch arrived. It´s just “getting better at the game”.

@Valaska

Punishing players from picking other weapons and playstyles?

You´re not punished, the game got more balanced.

It was obvious that flamer is broken. Being like “Man… it´s ok that i can clear a whole room of enemies in 3-5s while holding LMB, because i can´t kill snipers with it.” is nonsense.
Flamer will still do its job, killing a horde faster than any other weapon. Meanwhile the guns you claim will do their job as allrounder. Some nerfs on them or atleast blessings are needed aswell, but the flamer needed them too and got them finally.

@Valaska

This is punishing players for playing the game outside of the meta.

Flamer was meta.

EDIT: Btw i was always a fan of the laspistol aswell. Highly versatile, fast gameplay and huge crits. But hey… poeple claim it was useless and still is somehow.

[Ralendil]

@Valaska

My MAIN WAS VETERAN. I stated that. I have used EVERY autogun, almost all the lasguns (Hellbore I think is garbage and not fun), I’ve used the Auto Shredder on Zealot when I need to carry a team.

I don’t like Helbore also
But if you want to play a ranged class… veteran is your choice. Then the flamer nerf has… no impact to you.

@Valaska

This is such a stupid statement. The zealot STILL PERFORMS BEST with ranged weapons! Agripinaa Braced, Auto Shredder, Kantreal. That is LEAGUES better than any thunder hammer or maul, and equal to the combat axe more or less.

Then you should pay attention to feats and aptitudes.
Veteran is ranged focused, zealot is the opposite and melee focused. If you don’t play your class, you impact others (especially on ammo supplies, not every veteran use the MG XII and its huge ammount of ammos)

@Valaska

And the shotguns are pretty damn meh if you think otherwise I don’t know what to tell you, they’re trash compared to the Auto Shredder.

The shotguns are great… but maybe I have a different opinion cause I use them just to eliminate a threat before returning to melee. On this, the shotguns (kantrael and lawbringer) are really great.

Enough said… I need to test it myself in a game this evening.
As I said, I stopped playing with flamer cause it was too powerful

[Valaska]

You´re not punished, the game got more balanced.

They have COMPLETELY GUTTED the flamethrower, in all ways, in all forms. It is now worthless, it is relegated to T5 garbage weapon. That is punishing players, it’s not “more balanced” as this is a PVE COOP GAME. THERE ARE NO STAKES. The proper way to BALANCE a game like thism, is to give more challenging enemies and maps so players have to use their current toolsets to overcome those things. You might hate it, but Destiny does it this way and is CRUSHING all other PVE coop games. It’s completely broken their PVP element, but who tf cares about that.

Warframe is only alive because they walk back every single major nerf they do within weeks. The flamer was nowhere near broken in Damnation and Heresy, and Malice is NOT where you should be balancing things for because it’s not a mode for tryharding, it’s a minor challenge while still ebing fun. A chill mode. The Flamethrower clearing A ROOM in 3-5 seconds on Heresy…? During objectives? No way, you’re over exaggerating to make your point, I get it but come on your entire argument here is to harm players and limit the amount of ways they can engage with this game. Instead of Fatshark offering more challenges on a map that will counter flamethrowers (though I would argue there already were… snipers, gunners, bridges, large long gaps, etc).

Flamer was meta.

Flamer was never Meta. It was good, for Malice and Heresy. VERY good in Malice lets be honest. But meta? No. The Shredder, Agripinaa Braces, Bolter, etc all are VASTLY SUPERIOR in the MEta. And you are outright lying otherwise just to make your point. If you are being honest here, you know what i am saying in 100% true. Especially on Zealot when you pop ult, the Shredder crushes the performance of the flamethrower.

[Valaska]

Then you should pay attention to feats and aptitudes.
Veteran is ranged focused, zealot is the opposite and melee focused. If you don’t play your class, you impact others (especially on ammo supplies, not every veteran use the MG XII and its huge ammount of ammos)

There’s more than enough ammo on a map for 4 veterans to clear damnation. And instead of crushing playstyles, making the game worse to play and less versatile/engaging across multiple playstyles… you need to cater to as many as possible.

So going “The Zealot is MELEE and MELEE only” is a good way to turn people off from playing it. Especially since Shredder etc… I HAVE REPEATED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES. Right now, the Zealot VASTLY OUTPERFORMS USING RANGED WEAPONS THAT ARE NOT THE FLAMETHROWER. This is a SIMPLE CONCEPT.[ There are MULTIPLE WEAPONS the zealot can use that are better than ANY MELEE WEAPON and were VASTLYE BETTER THAN THE FLAMETHROWER, that they can use, right now.

Pop ult with the shredder and some of the right blessings, the flamethrower didn’t even come close. Agripinaa Braces SAME STORY. The flamethrower was a unique playstyle using DOTS that just got killed, and solved NONE of the issues you had. The Zealot is still better at ranged combat. PERIOD.

The Veteran is just not markedly better at melee now. But the Psyker… arguably is better than both now in every regard including ranged and melee.

[Ralendil]

You know, yelling (CAPS) is not making your opinion more important.

@Valaska

There’s more than enough ammo on a map for 4 veterans to clear damnation. And instead of crushing playstyles, making the game worse to play and less versatile/engaging across multiple playstyles… you need to cater to as many as possible.

Game adapts the ammo supplies to the team… at least that’s my impression cause I get less ammo when there are 3 psykers… or even 2.

[1Cake]

I mostly play Zealot Preacher, I’ve been exclusively playing Damnation for a few months now, and your statements seem bizzare and outlandish to me. A proper flamer has never had any problems with killing any enemy in the game on any difficulty. If anything, the mag size change will make Overpressure blessing stack faster.
You should explore other ranged options if you feel that the flamer was already weak and is now getting unplayable. Hopefully you’ll also find more playstyles that suit you so the game doesn’t grow stale.

[Darth_Angeal]

@Valaska

They have COMPLETELY GUTTED the flamethrower, in all ways, in all forms. It is now worthless, it is relegated to T5 garbage weapon.

How about playing before judging?

I already told you, instead of holding LMB, maybe cut it inbetween and let the DoT doing its job.

@Valaska

That is punishing players, it’s not “more balanced” as this is a PVE COOP GAME.

Also again… every game needs balance. You´re not punished yet, you just abused a broken tool before. It´s like you´ve cheated through the game instead of getting used to its mechanics, which you´ve to do right now.

Other poeple perform well without broken tools aswell, why shouldn´t you?

@Valaska

is to give more challenging enemies

Funny thing… how challenging are they if they get melt down by a flamer?

And what if that´s not a thing? Right… then we´re at the point as we´re right now just with way less effort and time needed to fix this weapon.

@Valaska

You might hate it, but Destiny does it this way and is CRUSHING all other PVE coop games.

That´s why the new addon obviously sucks, is way too easy and cheesy? Or do we speak about Gjallarhorn-abuse where poeple got kicked out of lobbies who didn´t own it?

@Valaska

The flamer was nowhere near broken in Damnation and Heresy, and Malice is NOT where you should be balancing things for because it’s not a mode for tryharding

a) Malice should be balanced around, because it´s something i would claim to be the “standard-difficulty”, while the first to are for beginners and the last for better players.
So yes, it makes sense to balance around malice to keep heresy / damnation challenging.

b) Sorry but reading all your stuff and claims like “it was not that good on heresy / damnation” lets me highly doubt on your judgement and general skilllevel.
And everything else you claim but Bolter just has become that strong recently because FS buffed blessings way too hard.
And as i´ve said… more nerfs are needed to several weapons / blessings.

@Valaska

And you are outright lying otherwise just to make your point.

There´s absolutely no need to. Maybe i´m just better at the game, have more experience and can deal with any weapon / circumstances.
Sorry to choose this card, but your claim is just absurd.

Just saying… Zealot was my first class and i beat heresy at level 10 with axe + shredder at release, while the highest guy was a Psyker level 19 or so in this run.
Just as a reference for “what is possible”. Flamer would´ve made it even easier i guess.

@Valaska

If you are being honest here, you know what i am saying in 100% true.

No you´re not.

I only agree that other stuff is strong aswell and need nerfs aswell. Stated this more than once.

And since i´ve just repeated a lot, i don´t think you read carefully or actually want to engage with arguments made. It seems you just want to vent because your toy got nerfed instead of actually trying it out and getting better at the game.
That´s why i won´t engage any further on this.

[anon61080228]

@1Cake

Overpressure blessing stack faster.

Good point actually. Some people prob don’t know much about game, a don’t want to, so if they can’t faceroll with stock weapon from armory/melk shop than it’s broken and useless to them. Not a big surprise with such rng system tho, trying to farm trauma with blazing spirit+nexus for a week already.

[Valaska]

lol just looked at the discord, the place most people whining for these nerfs come from… they are already demanding BM Axes get nerfed.

Hilarious thing? Judging by the pointless flamer nerfs, they’ll do it too. It’s easier than making new enemy types and such that will challenge the meta weapons. Oh, there’s a guy calling for the Auto Shredder to be nerfed, too lol.

[Valaska]

I only agree that other stuff is strong aswell and need nerfs aswell. Stated this more than once.

Smart. Drive away as many people as possible. Capital idea.

[Valaska]

Already stated there are SEVERAL better ranged weapons to the flamer. I use them constantly in Damnation as the flamer falls off in most situations especially dealing with shooters, gunners, and ESPECIALLY snipers when they are in the more open rooms, bridges, etc. If my team isn’t ontop of things I get left with having to rush through tons of enemies to get the long ranged enemies (and get melted on the way usually) or hold back, keep things clear for them and wait for less density of mooks so I can get to longer ranged enemies.

So instead in damnation I bring something ACTUALLY META. Agrpinaa Braced for example, the bolter, kantrael las etc. At that point I am no longer feeling like a zealot I just feel like a veteran subclass.

The flamethrower feels different, it is unique, its interesting and yeah its pretty fun to just burn things and get rid of all the mooks so your team can knock down the big ones. Yeah you can abuse chastise.

Know the easy fix for that? Make it so chastise doesn’t work with the flamer, leave everything else the same.

[zaygr]

Well, they tacitly endorsed the ranged interaction of Chastise the Wicked. That’s probably the worse thing, what a weird place for the main ability of a more melee focussed class to interact better with ranged weapons than melee. At least give back the guaranteed melee crits for the full duration of Chastise the Wicked.

[1Cake]

@Valaska

So instead in damnation I bring something ACTUALLY META.

@Valaska

At that point I am no longer feeling like a zealot I just feel like a veteran subclass.

That’s not supposed to happen by the way.

[Silverquick]

@Ralendil

If you play a zealot, you should rely on melee weapon… not a flamer.
They did not nerf the class, they nerfed the weapon that was OP.

When I use the flamer, it is just to clean an horde and give a breath to my team. But, a ranged weapon should not be your favorite choice, except for the final of any missions (when you wait for extraction).

No… they shouldn’t.

This is not Vermintide 2. It is Darktide. What are the very first weapons you get as a Zealot?

Rashad Axe and Auto Pistol. What are those specific weapons good for?

Your answer is, using Melee on Heavies… and Ranged on Hordes… why do you think Zealot actually has such crap weapons for horde clear? Almost ALL of them suck balls at horde clear… EXCEPT their ranged weapons ironically. They’ve got GREAT melee weapons for taking down heavies… but not much for Horde Clear.

It’s the complete opposite of what you were thinking.

[Ralendil]

Heavy sword? you think it is great against crushers?

[Silverquick]

Almost ALL of the Zealot’s melee weapons are for taking down Heavies… not Hordes. Other classes have great horde clear weapons EXCEPT Zealot.

But… yet we see most of his Ranged Weapons are for taking down light targets or Horde Enemies with the exception of Bolter. You might not like that but it’s the truth. THe Zealot is for taking down heavies in melee… not hordes.

[1Cake]

Zealot exclusive melee weapons are:

• Heavy sword
• Thunderhammer
• Eviscerator
  One is fantastic against hordes, the other is fantastic against elites, specials, and bosses. And an eviscerator is kinda bad at everything.
  That makes it an even balance.

[Silverquick]

Dude I hate to break this to you but Heavy Sword isn’t much better than a Devil’s Claw.

[1Cake]

This is one of the most incorrect takes I’ve read on this forum in a while.

[zhurtek]

Heavy sword with rampage and headtaker is considered to be one of if not the best horde clear weapons in the game, I have no clue how you think the devils claw is on par with it.