I have three characters 30 vet/ 28 ogr/ 22 psy and over 80 hours played with the pre-release beta and it has all been through quickplay, which I think shapes some of my perspective.
The Bolter. It should be a class specific (veteran) weapon only or give the veteran access to a flamer so we can fill the roles of zealots who are now ranged anti-armour specialists.
What this really brings up are the classes and the specific roles (if any) they are intended to fill out. The ogryn is rather obvious, a borderline meta-tank I have greatly enjoyed playing. The psyker is fun if you enjoy flipping between BB, peril, a staff and some melee anti-armour with a charged Psykerblade. The zealot seems to be both ranged and melee expertise, with stun cc options. There needs to be greater distinction between zealot and veteran.
Also, with so many good ranged options for three of the classes (four if psyker likes the Recon VId lasgun!?) I spend most of my time as a Vet running around looking for ammo post level 30 hoping that the other classes with their lesser need for it don’t just grab it because its there. Add to this the need to find resources for later upgrades, obviously love the addition of this, however this now sees teams split up searching for things and running into trouble after getting spread apart by the same needs and the much more open levels than V2. The balancing out of the weapons and classes is actually quite important to the QoL of this game.
The Plasma Gun. A good work in progress but it is sorely lacking something. A fixed 7 second reload, limited ammo, and venting heat (burning us like sienna) plus it is far less useful and is out dps’d by the bolter in heresy+ ‘sudden’ situations and most others to be honest. It is an end game tier unlock for Vet and it should not be outdone by much earlier unlocked weapons for less range specific classes. I have enjoyed using it on lower difficulties and the plasma gun has potential, it’s ability to pick off fodder behind cover is neat but does not balance out the deficits of using one against say a monstrosity where you overheat before doing any real damage or getting to fling a couple of shots at a reaper before a bolter/BB rapidly ends negotiations. The Plasma gun needs to be a bit more nuclear and set apart from the other ranged options for melee focused classes. See earlier suggestions about bolter being vet only.
The game is good, could be great, but it needs some serious redressing of current weapons availability across the classes.
My biggest problem with your initial statement of taking out certain weapons for other classes, and making them class specific, is you’re potentially gimping teams that dont have a vet in them.
I need my Bolter right now, because i often need to help eliminate proprity targets in difficulties 4 and 5. Sticking me with a normal lasgun isn’t bad, but it generally requires me to spend more time pot shottin, rather than just massive chunking a special’s health so my vet can finish them, or if there is no vet, i dont overwhelm our psyker with targets.
Removing flamer would also completely ruin the ability to crowd control and wave clear in desperate situations, where a vet would not want to be.
Now, if you’re willing to give up your power sword, then maybe we can talk, because right now that thing ourperforms a thunder hammer at higher levels.
Yes I agree, this is entirely about class balance. If the zealot doesnt work without a bolter that effectively makes redundant all the other ranged weapons available to it. It has a flamer giving it the same coverage as a psyker conflagration staff without the more intense management of its usage e.g. peril, and top tier ranged anti-armour with the bolter.
I never suggested removing the flamer, i did say that the flamer could also go to the vet if the bolter is going to the zealot, for the same reasons. Crowd control, which you already have a flashbang for, and I have a grenade.
I have not used the thunderhammer but I’m guessing end tier unlock like the plasma gun and they are both unfit for purpose, seeing both classes fill the deficit with the same weapon.
Having the bolter on the zealot isn’t taking away from the vets class identity. Like, at all. No one in the game can put out the ranged damage that a vet can. Just because the zealot can put out some anti-armor through the bolter doesn’t remove the fact that role is better on the vet.
What should we do if the vet is bringing the recon lasgun, like I see a lot of them do? Just hope that the range armor conveniently goes to melee for the zealot to melee, and that all other ranged happens to ignore said zealot?
I don’t want the zealot to be useless at ranged, while I don’t want the vet to be useless in melee. Zealot, as it stands right now isn’t taking over the vet’s niche. The vet on the other hand, is absolutely taking over the zealot’s niche while also carrying their own niche. They’re just better brawlers then the zealot is.
Having the bolter on the zealot isn’t taking away from the vets class identity. Like, at all. No one in the game can put out the ranged damage that a vet can. Just because the zealot can put out some anti-armor through the bolter doesn’t remove the fact that role is better on the vet.
It is, it’s a heavy ranged weapon (for a non-ogryn) and the zealot has the flamer as well like the psyker, honestly I think the zealot is spoiled at the moment and is getting the best of everything ranged, without having to micromanage peril, and is now competing with vets for ammo hunting. Trust me, you do that as a vet post-30 and you’ll see what I mean about zealots.
What should we do if the vet is bringing the recon lasgun, like I see a lot of them do? Just hope that the range armor conveniently goes to melee for the zealot to melee, and that all other ranged happens to ignore said zealot?
What do you consider to be the zealots role? Melee tanking crowd control with DoT and anti armour with range? The zealot is doing ogryn, psyker and vet there. Tell me how is the vet better at melee than the psyker? It isn’t. It has a powersword for small mobs and no other survivability at melee. Working as part of a cohesive balanced team the powersword plays, but caught on his/her/their own you wont have time to charge it up.
All told I think all of these ‘problems’ stem from the fact that missions are no longer restricted to one of each class. Add to this the searching of grims, scripts, resources and ammo, larger more open levels sees a spreading out of the fireteam and everyones vulnerabilities are being exposed. Players are looking to see their favored class be a jack-of-all-trades. This does tug at the intended design of things.
sorry, I keep editing this
The cohesion aura isn’t anywhere near enough to keep all of these other problems from unfurling. Is it an issue with quickplay as well?
From your original post, you haven’t done any playing of the zealot. I’d say give that a go for a while. I’ve been leveling everything other then psyker, which is why I don’t really have any opinions on that one.
Competing for ammo? The vet has the largest ammo pool and the best ammo economy in the game. Are you using your non-horde weapons for hordes, and your non-precision weapons for precision firing? The ammo economy is pretty well balanced if you’re using your weapons for their intended roles instead of just using them for everything. Ammo isn’t a vet exclusive resource, and anyone playing this game as a vet with only firing their gun is not playing the game as it’s designed. This includes all the classes, not just vets.
What do you consider to be the zealots role?
It’s melee dps, and surviving to do so. The vet does that better with the force sword because of how their base class is (100 more toughness with easier ways to get that back for 50 less health) and with how powerful the force sword is.
From your original comment, you haven’t played as a zealot. I’d strongly recommend getting first hand experience with it before saying they have too many options. Only seeing it from a teammates point of view isn’t going to give you a good assessment of how the class works, just like only playing one class isn’t going to give you a good view of overall balance.
The ‘problems’, as you put it, were still there in VT2 despite restricting the parties to one of each character. You could have (nearly) every class cover every needed role. Special killer? Everyone who had ranged weapons could do it. Horde clear? Every class could do that. Monster killer? Again, every class could do that. You also could have quickplay matches where no one covered necessary roles because no one had those covered, but that was rare because everyone could have a loadout who could do everything needed.
And no sarcasm, I’d love to hear your opinions once you reach high level (if not 30) with the zealot, and comparing it to the other classes while keeping an open mind towards it.
Like I don’t want to get rid of the crossover between classes, because covering the basics is something that everyone should be able to do. A group shouldn’t need to have one of every class, but it should want to. Right now though, I’d much rather have 2 vets then a vet and a zealot.