Chaos warrior uppercuts are unreliable

Totally agree.

Exactly. In my opinion, the first change Fatshark should do, it’s make that attack “staggerable” as any other CWs’ normal attack (I mean as every attack except punch, kick and overhead).

Specially trying some control with a shield, vs an even small CWs group, is often a suicide… stacks/interpenetration + unpredictable diagonal swing is an unfair combo.

2 Likes

I guess it comes down to the design philosophy behind Chaos Warriors. Are they:
a) There to act as an armoured elite to mitigate the weakness of Norscan hordes (unarmoured elites), or
b) There to act as a dangerous threat that goes beyond just being tough to kill.

If it’s a, then make it staggerable (boring option I think in the long run). If it’s b, buff the hell out of them and make them force their way into and through other faction hordes with a higher frequency, like proper relentless Greataxe wielding superamoured murderers. Imagine how much more intimidating CWs would be if only shields didn’t get instantly guard broken by their attacks? Or if their attacks did damage through the block of non-shield weapons? etc.

If it does end up as something that they can be staggered out of, I’d want that to be the case for Shields and the 2h Hammer only.

3 Likes

I feel like like it’s fine for them to have an unstaggerable attack like this. But being this fast, having a hitbox that big, doing an entire ranged career’s healthbar in one hit, and weirdly bypassing Gromril/heart of iron all in one attack is too much.

I really think they could just reduce the damage by like 20-30% and maybe reduce the hitbox a bit and it would be absolutely fine.

2 Likes

I don’t think stagger changes would be needed, just a slightly slower animation and improved hitbox. Pretty safe rule that if you can see the end of a weapon, you should be out of range, but that’s not always the case for whatever reason.

6 Likes

Fair point. If you are interested in pov, I think they are meant to let hordes to put more pressure… and it’s good, I’m not saying they must become more easily staggerable. But the diagonal attack adds just rng.

In my opinion we should keep the same “stagger threshold” as now, except for the diagonal attack (currently never staggerable, ults apart), wich would become staggerable as any other CWs’ attack. This means that you could stagger them only with shields and particulary heavy weapons like 2h Hammer (+ some properties).

But the whole point of the attack is so that Chaos Warriors can break out of being stagger locked and punish whoever is in front of them. Not saying that the attack isn’t tough to deal with, but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker.

4 Likes

I can understand what you are saying, but already exists the overhead as “not-staggerable attack”… but even the normal attacks are really really hard to stop… you need precise weapons/builds and anyway you can stagger just 1 ( max 2) of them at time… I don’t think the diagonal swing is needed to define CW’s work.

Imjo it’s just an RGN factor… especially as shield user, it’s ridicolous. Many times they start the diagonal swing while I’m already bashing so I get the damage without the possiblity to react.

It’s not about whether or not the attack is staggerable, but if it can break it out of being stagger locked and actually threaten players. The overhead is extremely slow and telegraphed, and needs a little bit of time to get started, while the uppercut can reliably break the Chaos Warrior out of being stagger locked and threaten players as I think it should.

1 Like

I don’t think it’s true. I did more tests CW vs shield (weapon with highest stagger) and, spamming push or spamming bash or spamming push/bash combo, it’s very hard stun-lock a CW (even without the diagonal attack). The overhead attack can “pop up” and break your chain of stagger.

And I repeat: I’m talking about shields… with other weapons it’s almost impossible.

Moreover all this is valid vs one only CW… when you are fighting a group of CWs, even a small one, stun-lock them is impossible.

So, in my opinion, diagonal attack isn’t something needed to prevent to lock CWs.

I still think it’s good that Chaos Warriors can actually threaten you in some way, as they should. Yes, clean up the attack itself, the range, hitbox etc. but I don’t think it’s wrong to have it. Personally I’d rather that Chaos Warriors are completely immune to stagger outside of abilities and bombs, and have less of them so they’re more individually threatening.

What you’re also not counting is the fact that there’s 4 people in a team (not just 1) that are spamming abilities and staggering as well. While it’s hard to stagger lock Chaos Warriors by yourself, when you have a team of 4, it happens a lot, especially with the small stagger affect that keeps getting reapplied.

2 Likes

In my opinion it’s not the diagonal attack that makes CWs a threat or not… I mean, they aren’t bosses, they must be dangerous when they are numerous into an horde, making pressure… and they can already do it. I consider the diagonal attack just an “RNG factor” that yep, increases the difficulty, but in a wrong way… like an assassin that spawns on you, a stormer that casts through a wall, etc etc.

Then ok, we can argue that there are other ways to “fix” this problem, I’m not saying my idea is the best one… maybe, I don’t know. But when they use that attack while you are already bashing (with a shield), it’s a very big problem.

About the fact that they should not be staggerable, I can only say that I don’t agree. I respect your opinion but I don’t agree.

As someone whos favorite weapons in the game are shield weapons: Chaos Warriors having a mechanism that counters mindless shieldbashing is a good thing, though. Chaos Warriors have a cooldown / recovery phase after an attack. You have to time your bashes (and other attacks) to make sure you do them when they can’t sweep you. Letting yourself get whacked by one because you mistimed a bash is a mistake, not nescessarily an unfair mechanic.

I agree that - amongst other things - this sweep attack makes fighting a few CWs together or one in a dense horde hard, and sometimes pretty much impossible. The counter to that situation isn’t trying to out-tank the CWs / horde, however, but to try to pull them apart, and attack when you get an opening where you are not at rist from a sweep or punch. That positioning / maneuvering aspect is a very important part of the Vermintide gameplay! It’s not all just about weapons stats and skill, especially on higher difficulties. Also, there a plenty of videos of people demonstrating fighting several CWs, even with shields. They just don’t do that by trying to keep them all staggerlocked like a bunch of slaverats. Which is a good thing. Game would be quite stale otherwise.

The actual problems with the upswing sweep-attack are its too high damage value, uncomprehensible hitbox, and wonkyness where it sometimes seems to ignore blocks or survival skills. Its speed and unstaggerability, in my opinion, aren’t problems. Those are just factors that help make CWs interesting enemies, beyong just being damage sponges.

3 Likes

Vermintide has a series of issues regarding hitboxes vs visual elements

a lot of weapons will miss the player on screen by a fairly wide margin and still deal damage, even on host

4 Likes

I know that it’s not always possible out-tank a group of CWs, and I know how to use shields as well, they are among my preferite weapons/styles… but the problem I said remains. Maybe your reasoning can be true on paper but in game, among bad scenarios and different situations, it’s not always possible take the right decision or check every aspect… and this doesn’t depend on player’s skill (at least not always)… there can be tons of reasons. I don’t demand to tank patrols of CWs with a shield… but that they can outspeed me, with an heavy not-staggerable attack, while I’m already bashing, and hit me dealing an heavy damage… there is no planet where this can be considered fair. At least in my opinion.

But it’s not only about how the game is, but how it should be… because if, even with a shield user, some CWs force the team to separate… it’s not a good thing.

I honestly think it’s one of the biggest issues with the combat system, how incredibly bad hitboxes can be. Enemies attacking from different elevations are the worst, you’ll see their weapon pass like a meter in front of you and still eat a hit anyway.

Pretty sure there’s a clip where fattig dodges a mauler overhead and still gets hit by it despite being completely behind the guy, while hosting.

4 Likes

yup that’s a pretty infamous one

tracking is also a factor with enemies just running forwards and then 180ing, sliding and other such shenanigans that I’m sure we all know too well at this point

5 Likes

This may be just my personal experience, but once you’re fully aware CW has that attack, its really hard to get hit by it anymore. Can’t remember the last time I was downed or killed by it, its mostly slide sweeps nowadays.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu