I mean there is no synergy, its just using 2 of elfs strongest weapons. Right now hagbane can be chosen on shade because of her ammo on backstab, remove that talent and longbow would always be picked.
hagbane would still be viable without the talent but it just wouldnt be able to spam every horde as much to get rid of the density, longbow on the other hand would just require a bit more aim and headshots to keep up your ammo, just like whc has to do with his crossbow.
I disagree.
I think the strongest utility of hagbane, or swift, to quickly add barrage stacks and together with other power enhancing stuff quickly delete bosses. It’s a one trick pony best combined with crit power, but leaving the notion of being an all-rounder behind, I think it’s a very strong use of both weapons. And as mentioned previously, it really depends on not only what your aim with the build is but also what you struggle with. If you don’t struggle with horse because reason then longbow offers more utility imo.
I’m on mobile so I will not proof read (sorry) but to sumnarize I actually agree with the quotes statement but I think it’s really important to consider what the player aim to achieve (single target, horde clear, circles, specials). I think removing blood fletcher would cause a lot of players to rethink their Shade playstyle, and that would open up for more interesting niche builds (if bloodfetcher is something g I e always pick).
Definitely, though I meant more as it is now I think the synergy between DD and infinite hagbane spam is pretty obvious. Breaking up density would still be strong and help with one of the weaknesses DD has, but it would be less dumb if your ammo was at all restricted.
I guess it’s kind of just going in circles if we already agree on what changes are good or not though lol, the specific reasons why aren’t that big a deal if they both add up to the same thing.
Even just character design wise I don’t think it really fits her that well. Does any other melee class get that sort of ammo regen? The only thing I can see on them is extra ammo. No idea why shade is the exception to that (or why HM gets 10% more ammo from her talent actually, if ranalds gift is right).
Doesn’t attack speed translate to charge speed for ranged weapons? Not to say it’s not overshadowed by spirit-casting, but it is more consistent, just less impactful.
5% is not noticable. 10% is noticable But then you give up a property, it might be worth running 10% attack speed for melee only builds, but you already get so much attack speed with one with the flame and 100% ss uptime thats it really not needed.
Its better to run 10% crit chance when going melee for increased ss uptime, and more crit chance, which is good for melee damage or crit refund ult.
Yes if you go melee only and you take loads of damage every horde and you are at -80% hp including temp hp for an entire map, i would suggest taking 5% attack speed, you wont notice it but atleast you would get a miniscule amount of value out of it.
Yeah. 100% this. If you’re taking martial study for a melee build you probably eat crayons.
I miss the blunderbuss m2 spam. No, not anymore. Not counting overheaters obviously.
The circlejerk for nerfing the elf is strong here.
If you can read my original post this isn’t about nerfing or buffing, just discussing which talents get overshadowed and make it so there isn’t any choice. It’s up to fatshark to decide if they want to nerf 1 talent or buff 2 talents.
If you have to resort to words like ‘circlejerk’ instead of using arguments why or why not a certain talent gets overshadowed, or if you get emotionally defensive because a random internet guy is just discussing something then forums are literally the worst place for you to be.
If you feel like i put in a talent which don’t get overshadowed please i’d be happy to know, i am willing to change my mind, i changed my mind about 2 elf talents because @Sleezy and @Kitten gave me situations or builds where it could be used. But i guess you didn’t really read anything and are to emotionally invested in elf to be able to have a good productive discussion.
Sorry, I haven’t been keeping up with this thread, but has anyone discussed how locked in the last two rows of WS are?
With Lbow, I don’t think the move speed talent is terrible. I use it so I can run ahead of my team and snipe the elites lol. But generally, yes. Mattie did mention Kurnous’ Reward in the OP. Also, I’ve seen some players do pretty well with the Double Lbow build.
I know it would be power creep and piercing shot would really mess up the whole thing, but I wish Kurnous’s Reward would be switched with Asrai Focus. That way we could use some of the interesting WS talents. That’s probably the worst solution actually. I just want some way to have good builds with the cool new talents.
Exactly, i didn’t mention the movespeed talent because some players like them and can make use of them, like on bh, it is easier to maintain on bh tho.
Yes the 2 ult talents are good talents, being able to getting 90% ammo back on 1 ult is just way better, even if you only get 30% back per ult. But to answer @Kitten the cooldown red talent + ammo regain are indeed meta talents but other than ammo regain talent i feel like cdr only outshines the ricohet talent
My real problem with both of the lines is that there’s nothing really interesting, when compared to some of the other new Talents for other Careers.
This also means that build variation becomes limited, because the Talent effects are pretty basic and don’t bounce off your stats.
This means, for me, that Kurnous’, and Asrai, are instantly locked in, with no need to ever play with other Talents. Meta or not, they’re just the most useful of a bunch of boring Talents.
Ricochet is kind of interesting, but also really unreliable, so I still go with Asrai, which offers more reliable and easy to put out damage while giving you ammo back too. I tend to just spam Hag for the entire game with this.
On other Characters I can spend hours planning builds and trying different things, but WS is a bit mechanically uninteresting. Still my main, as Longbow headshot spam is really satisfying.
I’m going to defend “lazy talents”. Sometimes I just don’t want to jump through a hoop for a buff.
I’ll take my 5-10% boost talents over talents that require more than what the boost gives, like Focused Spirit, Enhanced Training, Master Huntsman, or Crushing Counter Blow.
Honestly, a good number of “lazy talents” were removed after WoM that were replaced with thought out talents that don’t fulfill what the removed talents provided. Such as all of the reload speed talents. Those were lazy so they’re all gone except for RV’s Firing Fury, which only works if your ranged weapon cleaves. RIP handgun users.
Handgun has been dead for a long while now though. Same with volley crossbow, and shotguns on anything except their respective ranged careers, and repeater pistol on anything except BH to some extent.
Agree mostly, but some of that has to do with ranged weapons just being less powerful. Shotguns didn’t need their armor damage completely killed. Rep Pistol I still want to see buffed, really difficult weapon to use outside the specific BH build.
5% talents are mostly useless and get outshined by other talents on the same row, except for slayer where you just take it because you have no choice.
With 5% talents you are forced to take a 5% property if you want to make them noticable.
10% or even 15% talents are fine, which is why i didn’t put them on my list.
Focused spirit is just the fact that it can get triggerd by friendly fire and having to wait 15 seconds everytime.
Enhanced training is a good talent i personally use it on
mercenary with halberd because i like my halberd fast 
and i do fine, attack speed share and power are good aswell, so all good choices imo.
Master Huntsman is a good boost, just relies on if you get a boss soon.
A 5% reload speed talent would not be noticable, for example Huntsman 25% hs reload talent is good, still a bit too slow maybe for oldschool handgun users
I don’t agree with you here. The lazy choices are Skull-splitter and A Thousand Cuts since they are mutually exclusive by weapons anyway. I remember someone else a while ago suggesting they could be combined and I agree.
An interesting contrasting talent could be bonus if you use only axes or only hammers in a similar vein or a talent with bonus damage against monsters and champions, it’s what slayers seek after all.
As far as slayer goes the main problematic tier is the level 20. Adrenaline Surge is pretty much a no brainer due to it’s consistent damage increase and utility regardless of weapon.
And Grimnirs focus being the superior defensive talent in the level 25 tier. Especially if you wield a two hander.
In general id like to see talents reflect options in playstyle rather than be seemingly arbitrary choices. Like Offensive, Defensive, Utilitarian. Make you better at what your class is intended for or migtate a weakness? Risk vs Reward? Etc
Now you’ve got me dreaming of a talent that significantly increased cleave or crit chance if you were wielding any two varieties of axe 
You are correct, that entire row is basically no choice, you choose one depending on what weapon you have. They can make it so you get attack speed bonus or a power bonus when equipping 1h+2h, i’m not sure how strong that would be though. Your suggestion could be good aswell but if you equip 2x2h hammers you can already go for the 2h talent.
Yes adrenaline surge is honestly the best choice, but with such a low cooldown i think the other 2 talents can work aswell and are not completly overlooked
Grimnirs focus is indeed, but for players that don’t wanna charge attack in their attacks the other 2 choices are fine, i personally think barge is the worst talent of the 3 tbh. But that might just be my playstyle.
I think they can do alot more with the talents tbh, i don’t know what because i’m not really a designer, but they could start by making it so we can choose between all 3 talents without gimping ourselves.