Rescue 3 from 4 players is soloing as well isn´t it? No matter if you´ve to kill a boss, 10 specials or 2 horde.
I won´t call it elitist, if someone have to carry out “team - fails, players mistakes, bad luck”.
Let´s don´t complain about bad players, speedrunners or what else. A “boss” is a boss for me. No matter if you call it mini - boss, lord or even a special event.
We could argue hours over hours about this stuff. I still won´t see it as punishment of anyone. Mini-bosses are a game - design like everything else in this game and i think, the players shouldn´t be able to skip them in any way. It´s questionable if a wall is the best option to do that, but it is one.
The most melee weapons got buffed that hard, that the bosses fall quite fast. Every wipe to them, is a lack of skill / experience and in some rare moments, just unluck.
Like i already told, the players are able to force horde/ bossspawns with some mapknowledge. We could complain about newcomers, lower skilled players etc. But i´m really supposed to say, if someone fails quite often / nearly 100% to those moments, he probably have to practice a lil bit more on lower difficulties. If you or me have to solo any boss every game with the same persons, there is definately a lack of knowledge / skill / teamplay. These are things that have to be practiced and noone would complain anymore about a boss wall.
I´m pretty sure you know how fast bosses can be downed even on legend. I saw a lot of players who still can´t kite any boss (especially an ogre) or don´t use their pots (strong / con) to beat the boss. I don´t think those players would be able to rezz someone so or so.
Let them play more games to practice / get more experience and this whole “issue” is gone.
We won the map. It was 10 minute more than it should be, but still not a restart, which would waste even more time. And since its legend, we still had a decent chance for the “best” loot from the reward box(a red charm what else ).
Defeats still happen. But they shouldnt happen because of boss walls.
And i would say the defeats are happening because 2-3 people died and the rest were low health/overwhelmed. the boss walls just made the existing errors stick.
at the end its a subjective thing its not like theres a right and wrong , just a choice. me i like the walls or the affect they have anyway . i do get that others dont
Again, you’re either building strawmen or simply not paying attention to the discussion. The discussion is not “should bosses be skippable in general?” but “are boss walls the best solution to this issue and are they executed properly?” This is largely independent from thins like how easy they are to defeat or weapon buffs or anything for that matter. Your argument simply falls apart on this regard, you gotta make up your mind for what you want to route? Against speedrunners? To punish bad play (that’s still essentially what you are saying, no matter how much you rephrase it)? Is it supposed to be a teaching tool for maps? Who is the target audience for this?
So either way they are unnecessary because good players know how to dispatch bosses quickly or they are unnecessary because bad players will die with or without the boss walls. You brought player skill into the game, so decide for one way and stick to it. Right now, you’re not really providing any coherent argument for (or against, for that matter) the mechanics behind it other “it’s a game mechanic”. Everything that works as intended is a game mechanic. That says nothing about whether it should be.
I still think that if there HAVE to be boss walls, find middle ground and don’t obstruct clutches, as rarely as they happen, don’t happen, should happen or shouldn’t happen. They are a lazy design decision no matter how you look at it, though, which kinda goes to show that they didn’t even bother to give roger and spawn a different wall (couldn’t imagine what it could be for roger, but for spawn, maybe a bunch of buboes or tentacles coming from the ground).
I can´t complain why FS use the boss-walls on every boss now.
This thread is about them and the respawn points and that is ok, that the OP don´t like it. I´ve no problem with it and without “failing” they aren´t any problem. It´s still about the players.
Atleast i try to care about both sides. I still think boss walls are fine and the best option is, that the players ,who have a big problem with it, get more experience in boss fights so there won´t be any problem anymore. (just for speedrunners)
Fatshark_Hans
Just wanted to chime in here with some of what we’re discussing internally.
The biggest thing - at least what I believe the biggest thing - is how bosses affect the rest of the pacing and spawning, when they appear. If you don’t defeat it, but outrun it - that simply breaks the game, in terms of what will, and what won’t spawn. Smarter minds than mine are working on a few things at the office, that might alleviate these issues. We’re planning on running a beta where we turn off boss doors, and try a few new systems out. All you speed runners keep an eye out for that.
When people talk about clutch, they’re on about “I’ll hold my own until I can get to an ally” not “I’ll hold my own and ignore everyone until the portal”.
So the ultimate problem is the SPAWN POSITION, and not the boss wall. If the allies spawned inside the boss wall, (Like they do with bodvar, Skarritt and Rasknit) this wouldn’t even be a thread.
Whatever FS implement to remove boss walls without breaking the game will either be;
Boss buffs to allow bosses to catch up OR
Buff Bosses to stagger and hold players in place OR
Ramp up the Spawn rate at certain points in each map so that if you’re avoiding the boss you’ll get bogged down in hordes.
Boss walls are a brute force method of stopping players wrecking the game by breaking the spawns and spawn rate. Removing the boss walls will only stop the Brute Force method, and implement a more finessed method of holding up the players. My vote is Patrol Spam.
I don’t REALLY see the issue with this, but then again I liked to play L4D2 on “realism”, where you couldn’t spawn at all if dead (same as “abduction”), which of course translated to a higher lose rate. The fact that you get a tangible punishment for mistakes makes the game more fun for me; You didn’t lose because you can’t kill the troll alone, you lost because you “let” your teammates die.
Though nowadays a solo troll kill is more than possible. Even pre-nerf killing a troll was just exercise in patience for some classes (such as HM).
They could also have someone come in everytime you get hit and kick you in the pills. That would be as tangible as it gets. The question is not if it is a “tangible punishment” but if it is a sensible solution. Designing “tangible punishments” is not hard. Designing a sensible punishment is very much so.
Makes perfect sense to me in a multitude of ways. One for example being that the skaven or chaos don’t like their prisoners being easily accessible. Being permanently dead if you die would make doubly sense in universe. You can disagree with not wanting to be “punished” in this manner, but please don’t think disagreeing with you not being sensible.
This has little to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me. But as I have stated many times over, the game has “clutching” designed into certain carreers as a choice. Not being able to revive because of boss doors makes these already questionable choice next to useless. It is also pretty random where boss doors appear. Consistency is good. Randomness is something the game already has more than enough.
Which is why they throw them on the ground on the level and don’t take them captive into… I don’t know, a dungeon. Being able to be “revived” is clearly a choice towards convenience and playability while still reasonably trying to sustain suspension of disbelief. You are trying to argue for a meta aspect of the games mechanics with lore, which is always rather ill-fated. Boss doors are explicitly not in game because of any kind of lore, but to combat a certain aspect of “playstyle” where people were able to outrun bosses and being “punished” for it because the AI tends to give up at a certain point. It is a purely mechanical feature that is not backed by any lore, nor was it the intention behind it. As such, it can only be measured in its sensibility by meta-aspects of playability, how well it integrates into the flow of the game, how relevant this “speedrunning/AI breaking” playstyle was, how well it combats that and if there would be less intrusive ways to achieve the same goal without the detriments presented.
Thus, I entertain that boss-doors are only a crutch because other parts of the game are not working as they should. As long as this is the case, I think the general idea behind it is fine, but the execution is not and therefore, there are more sensible solutions to this problem, which have been discussed ad nauseam here.
No, it is not ‘subjective’ we can pull apart the design and boss wall’s are objectively bad. It’s not a piece of ‘art’ it’s a quantifiable mechanic with risk reward and player outcome based qualifiers mixed around narrative and mechanical game-play. It detracts on all bar the mechanical and that is an arguable debate which makes it a badly designed shoe horn of a fix for a problem that players seem to universally think is a non issue.
The game itself might be art but the techniques used to create it, much like the technique of a painter or sculpture can be validated.
go on then prove its objectively bad, because all you have done is list subjective opinions.
ill do the same thing here “Boss walls are objectively a great piece of game design , they prevent the players from skipping challenges and allow the game designers to keep bosses in designed for encounter arenas to prevent exploits and cheese”
i can claim thats objective truth to , but if its needed , good or the best choice . that’s subjective. but at last ive put in some actual reasons not just redundancies , opinions and personal judgements.
Criticism is ‘subjective’ but it is not arbitrary. So lets lay it out.
The problem is not speed runners as the discussion often goes (and thus it is not about loot system or speed runners), it is that the game has no way to keep the ai directior functioning when a player outpaces a boss.
An arbitrary restriction has been placed on the character to hide the problem of the ai director not being able to cope with players moving rapidly past a boss.
This arbitrary mechanic is causing community angst, and is clearly not seen as a full solution within the team itself. It is not related to franchise lore, and is not objectively part of the games narrative. it is an arbitrary fix to solve a symptom of a problem.
The problem is he ai director.
The solution has been to halt player progress through the level so they don’t encounter the ai directors failing.
Its not a subjective thing to say this is bad design. It is bad design. It is also clearly a problem the team is aware of and it would appear to be a stop gap measure while they figure out how to resolve the underlying issue.
The term cheese is completely subjective, the designers themselves have already copped to the true issue thus the solution you are telling me is a good solution isn’t addressing the actual core issue and we can see the difference between well designed ‘arenas’ and boss walls clearly within the piece itself. You can’;t objectively place that information out logicaly and come to the conclusion of ‘job well done now lets make a new coloured skin’
Next time just for you I shall use the word quantifiably (I ‘wont’ I love the hyperbole) a bad design solution.
Yeah its easy to get lost in the emotive and the hyperbolic, doesn’t mean the point is wrong. Boss walls are a quantifiably bad solution to an inadequate ai director.
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