BoP 1 step forward 2 steps back

Try 12, that’s the actual clip size. You’re thinking Volley Crossbow, that’s 15.

And yes it is when it takes 3-4 shots to bring most things down that aren’t armored. At least they now increased the damage vs Packmasters due to the Monster damage upgrade. But really All the other Ranged Weapons are much Stronger.

Took down a Troll today with Volley without breaking a sweat, using WHC Ult and Potion. So there wasn’t much difference.

That said… YES actually if I take the BoP I would like to be able to dump as much ammo as needed. If I want Precision BoP is the LAST thing I want to use and its not made for it.

If I want to take my time use precision and Snipe things I use the Crossbow. That’s what that’s made for.

If I want to one shot everything I use the Volley Charged Shot. There’s just no point anymore in the BoP.

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Well, there is always the point of flavor, but that’s something I take special note in that no one else cares about. I like me a good, thematic/badass feeling weapon.

I think the clip size going up 2-4 shots would be a great trade-off to please some folks, but I also think that they are moving away from the “Range-is-my-emergency-button” meta so I’d rather them stick to the reload. If you run out of ammunition and there’s still 3-5 Storm-Vermin standing?? Well… get in there! :smiley:

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Okay. There’s nothing I can do to stop you from doing that. I will give you a moment to blame… … … now!

Now that you’ve done that: is your cause furthered? Are you closer to having it resolved? Does it somehow prevent any further changes/nerfs from being made?

At it’s core, blaming does nothing to further the argument; all it does is attack the person. Moreover, if FatShark implemented it, they had good reason. Our dearest FatShark delivered us all this awesomeness in the first place… being mad about them moving some things around doesn’t seem like a great reason to lash out.

Moreover, that’s what we call a coincidence. There is no evidence to say that a dev didn’t have the idea first and, by happenstance, our dearest AgainPyromancer didn’t just make the dev go shout, “Team, look at that! Even the community thinks it’s a good idea!”

Or better yet, maybe they thought it at the same time. Maybe the Brace of Pistols were brought up and two minds both thought the same thing without them ever even remotely seeing another hint of that idea anywhere. If it happens twice, separately, in the same few days/weeks without them communicating? Then maybe it really is a good idea.

EDIT: This is hilarious and I wanted to mention it earlier but forgot:

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Your thoughts are accurate. I disliked the change to reloading when I read it, but it plays really well. The change to reloading can’t be considered in isolation from the other changes:

  • Damage increased against bosses from 0.75 to 2.5 near range and 1.5 far range
  • Increased Power boost from 0.75 to 1.0
  • Increased dodge range and speed from 1.1 to 1.25
  • Increased efficient dodge count to 100

The increases to dodge range and speed, and previous increases to walking speed with brace of pistols, are very nice. Brace of Pistols used to force a static play style when they were drawn. Current Brace of Pistols make you feel like a mobile gunslinger.

The damage increase vs. bosses is pretty hilarious. WHC + tag + ult dissolves bosses. Somebody should run the numbers and see if those 12 rounds do more damage to bosses vs 30 rounds with the previous damage multipliers.

Speaking of 12 rounds, that’s a lot. Blasting all 12 into a troll still feels like Salt’s gone absolute madman on the enemy. If that’s the defining feature of Brace of Pistols, it’s still there.

Summary of changes to Brace of Pistols: (1) the “mounted machine gun” play style has been weakened but not eliminated, (2) a new mobile gunslinging playstyle has been opened up.

The changes are great, they play better than they ever have. They’re better than they’ve ever been, despite niche uses being weakened.

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He can blame me if he likes. I’ve been campaigning to make BoP hit hard since VT1. I wanted them to be as badass as in the trailer. The previous time (around March) I made this suggestion I heard from someone at Fatshark that some devs found it interesting. They had so much going on though that nothing came of it immediately. With the BBB recently I made one more push and got news that FS were considering it again.

Like you said, though, I didn’t say “do it myyyyyyyyyy way!”. I made an argument about balance and realism and fun that FS found compelling. Everyone is able to do the same.

I’m very happy with the new mechanic. I think it’s fun and badass. If anything I’d turn up the damage a bit more and turn down the pistol count a bit more. Make those shots count, by Sigmar!

EDIT: timestamp on trailer vid for badassery

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Let’s maybe tone down the rhetoric on blaming other players, and keep it sportsman like. Ultimately FS made the call. A sensible approach is to attempt to give solution and adjustable feedback.

Having said that my basic premise for the argument here is purely emotional.

Make BoP stupid again

Stupid big ammo pool

Stupid machine gunning

Stupid fun.

I’ve seen plenty of reasonable comprises being floated here, and that’s great too. This is just one man’s dream maybe, but I don’t feel I’m alone on this.

Incorrect it doesn’t.
And I did try it.

Best I was able to do on a Boss mob was 850 damage. So basically you got hoodwinked.

What REALLY happens is that you Drink your potion, Hit your Ult, and Tag, Blow off a quick 12 rounds and then spend the rest of your time during your Ult and Potion reloading and doing nothing.

So your ULT and Potion runs out and and is wasted. You can then hit your Ult again but without Potion and fire another 12 shots before a long reload time.

Why? Because you spend all that time reloading… so your Ult is wasted and so is the Concoction Potion.

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BoP certainly isn’t fun anymore, even with the latest update they aren’t able to fill the role I’ve been using them for well, years now. No longer can I consistently push and quickswap to eliminate priority targets (except CWs) during hectic moments, because the “clip” runs out, which maybe wouldn’t be a bad thing, if the RELOAD wasn’t so insanely long.

I’m trying to see the positives here but its really not there, particularly perhaps because it is my… was my favorite ranged weapon. What is happening next I’m not really hopeful about, but we’ll see, I’d like to be proven wrong but this direction with long reload, smaller clip removes what was previously the strength of BoP.

So from after the beta BoP was considered in a much better place than previously, not ideal or perfectly balanced, but at least a competitive choice versus the rest of Salty’s ranged kit. This is clearly not the case anymore, as fully reloading BoP now with its “clip” takes longer than reloading the volley xbow! What!

BoP now no longer offers the you the freedom to fire at will and use all your current ammunition on a threat if you deem it necessary, and does so by locking you behind a painfully long reload.

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Are we playing different games? I’ve been using the pistols all day and they preform great. Not to mention, on zealot, 6 stacks, 20% damage from bomb, you can chunk about 40% of the bosses HP with 1 clip of 12.

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The posts here make me wish I could vote down posts.
As for the actual topic, wasn’t one suggestion in the past that they slowly load themselves?
I think that would fit the concept a bit better, as popping off the occasional shot could be done without the reload animation.

That was my original proposal, yeah. To make the reloading less intrusive. I later added “active reload” as an option when you were willing to sacrifice time for faster ammo replenishment. In the end, though, i don’t find the reloading instrusive as implemented. It’s kinda like venting heat – you get used to just tossing it in between opponents and encounters.

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I played 2 rounds of VT2 as Witch Hunter Captain wielding Brace of Pistols last night and found that they still did everything I needed them to. We never took a casualty, where I ran out of ammo on a special my teammates could always fill the gap, and I never felt like I absolutely needed the ammo as I could always rush in with my trusty flail (thanks @KaizenDK for tipping me off to it, its a fun weapon).

This is 100% accurate. Due to all of the other buffs the weapon received, every bullet is worth a ton more even with the reduced ammo capacity. I have never felt stressed in-between fights and during a patrol-fight I use what I can and handle the rest in melee.

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No we’re playing the same game alright. The BoP really just is that Bottom of the Barrel now.

I can do all that with the Volley as well. The difference is I actually can run around the board One Shotting things on the Volley Charged Shot and devastate Hordes with single shots due to the penetration (which is also possible on X-Bow too).

BoP I blow half the clip on one target just to bring it down due to the Beta 4 Nerfs (which were the balance point, but now totally sink it). Only exception is armored targets. Hell If I want to wipe out a large group of enemies I can do it much faster and easier with Volley Charged Shots or even Repeater.

I can run around the board One Body Shotting SVs with X-Bow and Ping.

There is nothing the BoP does anymore that even remotely compares to the other Ranged Options.

Group of Maulers and Maurauders stacked up… whole group dead instantly with Volley Charged Shots. Specials? All one shot kills on the charged shot.

The Clip idea on the BoP was the worst idea ever and made the entire BBB pointless and irrelevant.

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u hear that fatshark? we dont like ur change. are you gonna reverse this lame decision? or u think we’re wrong and want us to like what u like?

I switch back and forth between the Bop and xbox on salty. They both work fine. And no, the volley can not pump out that same damage as i remember it anyway. I’m speaking from zealot point of view, 30% damage stack and 20% on bomb. You can destroy bosses. The reload isn’t that bad as you load two ammo every time. Enough to take care of any special that’s pops up. Did they change volley? I don’t recall it ever doing this amount of boss damage… with the bop change, isn’t it around 7 damage now on bosses? Combined with the buffs I mentioned earlier, that’s well over 100 damage per 12 round clip. I’ll test out WHC later this week, and I don’t play BH. So I can’t speak from that classes point of view.

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If you’re talking Boss Mob damage, I’m speaking of Volley Charged Shot.

You basically do the same thing with WHC ult using Ult + Tag + Concoction + Potion. And since there’s no recoil You don’t have to be as close, but basically you spray it directly into the Boss Mob’s face for headshots.

Basically Volley IS the very weapon the Boneheads wanted to make the BoP into, ie it already existed and was far better at it than the BoP. Hard hitting, punches through multiple targets, long reload time, one shots things up close.

Same goes for the people wanting the BoP to be more of a Precision Weapon. they needed to go use the X-Bow instead. Because that weapon also already existed and was far better at it than the BoP.

They were trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole.

So of course when they slapped a clip on it, it became completely ineffective and worse than the other Ranged Options because it was never designed to do that.

I mean seriously what are you going to do? Make it into another Volley Crossbow because that’s what it would take? Well we’ve already got one, we don’t need another one.

But if you’re that serious… then just take the model for the BoP and slap it on the Volley Crossbow and you’ll have the weapon you wanted.

So instead of wasting everyone’s time hammering a square peg into a round hole, they just need to reverse the clip idea and accept the BoP is what it is.

The persistent and hyperbolic rage on display at this one specific change makes an argument for those in charge ignoring the voice of the common man.

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I actually love the new brace of pistols. They feel POWERFUL vs bosses from up close and I like the run’n’gun feel they have right now.

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I finally tried the pistols out today. The result was pretty much exactly what I predicted: They work just as well as they used to for the snapshots they are best for, killing any special and most Elites quite easily. Even rat patrols aren’t really a problem, as if you can shoot more than a full “magazine” into them, you already either have friends to help or can kite them well enough. Besides, if you get lucky (or extremely skilled) and can get a one-shot kill to each SV, the patrol even on Legend has two SVs left afterwards. I’d say they aren’t that limited for that either. The only thing really hit was the machinegunning right next to an ammo crate, and even that’s still mostly doable. I certainly didn’t run out of ammo even once, from magazine or completely, unless I was purposefully machinegunning.

I also had two concerns earlier that I didn’t voice. The first one was the reload time. It is long, if you have to reload from empty, but as you reload two bullets at a time and the reload is easily interruptible through either shooting, aiming or switching weapons, it’s not a problem - you can easily load one pair and get two shots more out almost immediately if needed.

Another was the updated Monster damage being possibly too much. About that I’m not quite so certain. It seemed that I could quite easily one-shot Packmasters and do very significant damage to bosses. I think it felt consistently a bit too powerful, especially against slavers. I’m not sure if I just lucked out and managed to get a crit those time I didn’t hit the head, but I think each shot that hit a Packmaster, also killed one. If a normal bodyshot without relevant bonuses, even from close range, is enough to kill one, I think the weapon is slightly too strong. In my opinion, either a headshot or a crit (or some Property investment) one-shotting Packmasters would be sensible, but not a basic bodyshot.

So in summary, I think the new BoP feels more sensible to use now, despite the Monster damage possibly being a bit overboard. Both the"magazine" size and reload timing feel sensible enough, and I actually like the bit of attention and pacing needed.

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What the hell is this pointing fingers and placing blame on a person who made a suggestion? It was Fatshark implementing the changes, not him. How is this comment not removed by now, pretty sure it goes against forum rules???

As for the weapon itself, maybe instead of screaming that the weapon is LITERALLY DEAD after just a day or two, maybe give fatshark some goddamn time to tweak the weapon and find a suitable place for it after some changes. I’m so sick and tired of people non-ironically saying things are just straight up “dead” with such confidence in what they’re saying when it’s not even close to the truth. The weapon is still fine. It was toned down in one area and brought up in another.

These awful knee-jerk reactions to anything being even slightly nerfed is just ruining all potential discussion on the forums because they’re not talking about the changes in a constructive manner. Your entire comment is basically “THE WEAPON IS DEAD, THIS ISNT HOW IT WAS MEANT TO BE (I KNOW THIS BECAUSE IM A GAME DESIGNER), AND IT’S ALL THIS PERSONS FAULT REEEEEEEEEE”.

It was the goddamn same when they nerfed pyro and everyone was screaming she was “unplayable” within hours, and fatshark didn’t get to take their time with the career and look over potential new directions for her. No, everyone was screaming so f*cking loud that they just reverted parts of the nerfs and left her there. There’s no room for them to try out new things if everyone is throwing a tantrum the second they touch someones favourite toy. What a disappointment.

There’s nothing in your posts to discuss, it’s straight up entitled gamer rage, and it’s quite frankly embarrassing for an adult to act like this on a public forum.

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