BoP 1 step forward 2 steps back

First, let my acknowledge that this change is recent and may not reflect, or indicate an end result. Yes i’m aware that this is a hot button issue, and that there will be umpteenth threads remarking on this in the comming days/weeks.

Having said that ive bnee play VT2 for a good long while now. Playing WHC with brace in every interation. Ive seen alot of changes over the months since release. Some i agreed with, and plenty that i thought required ironing out to make solvent.

I have to say the recent change to BoP may be one of the most, if not THE most baffling.

Most will argue that what truly gave this weapon personality WAS its lack of a reload system.

This isnt going to be a charts and graphs thread, or a discussion of break point, but a reflection on what gave this weapon some soul, and some flair:

Reckless and wanton expenditure of ammo for the sheer thrill of doing it.

my friends and i have been enjoying revisiting ubersreik, but our main topic of discussion from minute one of this patch has been " Why? Just… F’ing why? Why bother doing BoP dirty after a month of testing? "

People seemed uniformally satisfied with BoP 1.3

Not that this will sway FS, but not everything is about spreadsheets, and breakpoint, or 1’s and zeroes.

a tragic and unforced error imho.

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Well to be frank 1.3 BoP was OP as foobar. It was fine power-wise previously, which made me wonder why they went overboard with the 1.3 buffs. Haven’t tested the new iteration.

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Well to be Frank the BoP was never overpowered in 1.3.

It was seriously subpar prior compared to the all the other Saltzpyre Ranged Weapons and needed a serious Buff. It was just too Niche to be used when the other Ranged Weapons far outstripped its capabilities.

The only way to make it used again and comparable in power to the other Saltzpyre Ranged weapons was to give it something it could do well.

Patch 1.3 did that, and we started to see wide spread usage of the BoP again at least with regards to WHC. It was still pretty subpar for Bounty Hunters, and after the Beta 4 Nerfs when they nerfed all the damage except vs Armor it took a major hit for Zealots too, but at least it was good on WHC in 1.3.

That’s all out the window now, and its completely ineffective.

Its so bad in comparison to the other Ranged options, you won’t even be able to tweek it to bring it on par, the clip idea needs to be totally removed.

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the clip idea is good - Saltzpyre throwing away over 30 pistols way ridiculous. But it changes the pistols in such a way, that now they need a serious overhaul and not some tiny tweak.

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I guess i should reframe this. I agree to an extent that is was over-boosted. I guess my main conjecture is in the addition of a reload mechanic. I loved it pre-1.3, and in 1.3 mainly BECAUSE you could go crazy with it.

Again im not making a case for more or less power. Just that having it fall into the re-load mold seems lazy. It may/probably will get adjustments in other respects, and this isnt a whine thread. Its more about hoping that FS reflects on the change, and understands what it means to change it.

Guns blazing made this weapon fun. Effective is a whole other discussion.

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ALL of the Saltzpyre Ranged Weapons are Ludicrous.
The only one that isn’t is the basic X-Bow. Yeah an auto loading auto fire triple fire Volley Crossbow with a clip is not possible and completely Ludicrous…

Same way with the Repeater Pistol. There’s only ONE Hammer, you can’t fire 8 Shots Simultaneously with one hammer. And more importantly where exactly do you hold it to stabilize the weapon being that its mini-gun?

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Yes, but carrying 30 pistols is whole another level of ridiculous.

Dude… Auto Loading (aka clip fed)… triple fire… repeating crossbow… capable of full auto firing bolts…

I’m thinking the level of ludicrous isn’t any different here.

And this is the age of Black Powder weapons not cartridge fed (like modern bullets). the Repeater Handguns is equally ludicrous being a minigun.

Why would Saltz be using Musket Pistols at all if he could use cartridge fired weapons like revolvers… or auto loaders (aka semi autos)

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The issue is - ypu can see him drop those pistols abd you can hear him doing like 260 RPM. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Neither immersive nor fun.

You probably have 0 knowledge of the setting. Repeater pistols in thos world are rare and are not like in game. It’'s just 8 barrels with the unique capability to randomly explode, hence “conservatives” like Witch Hunters prefer safer single shot pistols and good old crossbows.

Same with an Auto-Fire Crossbow. Those are impossible and never existed. How the hell does it keep pulling the drawstrings back?

I fail to see how this is magically and mystically any different or somehow “more immersive”.

Last but not least, why in the hell are they using Miniguns?

And what the hell would they still have use for either a Crossbow OR a Musket if they had full auto fire weapons?

Yeah its completely ludicrous.
So the 30 pistols in the jacket aren’t much different.

If you had an “immersion” problem with the multiple pistols… why in the hell didn’t you also have a problem with ALL of the other stuff… Like a Two handed sword cleaving through 4-5 targets… or an Arrow from a regular bow magically and mystically punching through 4-5 bodies?

The only thing that can do THAT is a Firearm. Not a Crossbow OR a Bow.

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Because there are certain things that make gameplay fun. Like almost insta reload of 8 barrels (it’s not a minigun ). Or like the cleave (remove it and make number of enemies several times lower - doesn’t feel the same, does it).
Now 30 pistols in the jacket can be fixed. Insta-reload - not so much

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But somehow magically and mystically 30 pistols in a jacket is NOT fun… even though you have full auto fire punching through 4-5 targets with the OTHER weapons…

I’m smelling some SERIOUS double standard here…

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You’ve still got Swiftbow!

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You have “full auto fire” for 3 seconds and it’s still low ROF (Kruber) or you just blast all barrels at once (Saltz).
Repeater crossbow looks weird, but it’s all due to lack of imagination on Fatshark’s part. But the way it works, just like other weapons, is semi-viable.
Pistols on the other hand are NOT a case of cutting corners in design (crossbow) or of speeding up certain things to match gameplay (repeater pistol reload). It’s what it is - throwing away 30 pistols in rapid succession thus turning SINGLE SHOT pistols into highest ROF weapon in whole game.
Now that’s idiotic. I mean, by your standards is fine, but your standards are… well.

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We’re talking about a game where ammo magically appears in characters’ pouches each time they “crit,” with characters like BH who can blast off all 8 rounds of his repeater and magically still have it fully loaded. So when it comes to gunplay, can we please stop talking about the realism of carrying around 30 flintlock pistols?

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Despite nobody asking for it, and despite not having tested the reloadable version yet (although I get the impression that I’m not alone on that part), I’ll bring up my view here.

The change, in addition to being a nod towards realism, primarily affected two particular cases for the pistols’ use: machinegunning when standing next to a ammo crate (which, to be honest, seemed a bit silly and still wasn’t hugely effective despite being quite fun) and decimating a lot of priority targets at once (namely, a Stormvermin patrol or most of a Chaos patrol). Both were edge cases, and at least the latter really needed a bit of reining in, despite a full Legend patrol eating up majority of the weapon’s ammo. The result is a weapon that needs a bit of pacing with its shooting in addition to general ammo management, while still being well suited for the reflex shots it shines with. Its usual performance wasn’t affected at all. It isn’t any more or less effective against specials or Elites than it used to be; it just can’t waste all its ammo at once now, and today’s patch actually raised it performance significantly against certain targets it had trouble with before.

Any further judgement I have to reserve to when I actually get around to testing it. And besides, the patch 1.4 notes explicitly said FS isn’t happy with the balance, so expect more changes. We’ll see how things pan out, but don’t discount a weapon or change by its first impression - it takes time for a new style (and metagame, as much as I’d like it to go away) to settle and for players to find the “feel” for a significantly changed weapon such as this one.

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I still am wondering why there’s a double standard with being able to take out a Storm Vermin Patrol.

For some reason it seems to be ok for a SLAYER to do it with his Dual Axes, or a BOUNTY HUNTER with Volley or Repeater, or Battle Wizard with Conflag or etc etc…

But somehow magically and mystically is horrible for a WHC to do it with his Ult and Brace of Pistols?

Again I see little more than another double standard.

If the BoP were actually good at everything to the exclusion of other weapons it would be a different story… but they clearly are not. The other Saltz Ranged Weapons outstrip them in pretty much every other category.

And I have seen this from Day One of this game… where its ok for all other jobs to do things… but the minute the WHC does its magically and mystically its the most HORRIBLE thing in the world.

I’m getting sick of this double standard.

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So on the immersion topic Im a huge warhammer fanatic. Play the tabletop/40k and fantasy. Play the RPG. Read the novels ( fantasy/ horus heresy etc ) and absorb all their other game media. Been in love with warhammer since i discovered rogue trader. The immersion isnt all the relevant to me in terms of my satisfaction with VT2.

The key point here that im making ( just my opinion ) is that the full auto aspect of the Bop was a huge factor in why it was fun and different. TBH its not all that practical, but again it was just plain fun.

I think we get to into the weeds being nerds and having nerd arguements about details like “fitting 30 pistols into coats”, and " gun-turreting", and miss the part where people wanna have a good time, and not feel like each weapon is simply an interchangeable version of the others.

Yes this is the first step on a new path for BoP, and no i dont think FS will take the advice of reverting it back and leaving it alone as it was post 1.3.

Having used them for hours now since the update i can say at least in this initial iteration that they are cumbersome. I find myself spending half the run watching the hammers being clicked back on the pistols. After about 3 hours of this i got pretty tiring. I felt like i spent more time reloading then using them. Again not a scientific breakdown of this new system, just an observation based on enjoyment factor.

Come now, @Timo4545, that seems excessive. The style of ‘unload everything like a fire-hose’ is certainly something they have just changed, but it doesn’t mean it’s gone forever. Moreover, why are we calling things dumb? Why so dramatic? A civil, polite comment is vastly more effective at reaching out to FatShark (or anyone for that matter) and convincing them to make changes. Would you want to help someone insulting you?

@drednightwarior touches on something that I actually love about the Brace of Pistols; they were the weapon of hilarity that made ol’Saltzy into a meme. Him just heaving hundreds of pistols over his shoulder and ensuring that the grey-seer’s troops could track them all over the Reikland by the trail of pistols! Ha! So funny and wonderful. However, I feel I can disagree on taking away reloading entirely. I think it would be fun to have a single reload occur for every half of the entire ammunition pool. It still paces out the mass-expenditure of ammunition and prevents entirely wiping a patrol without help but still provides it that rip-roaring, bad-guy-flooring, fast-fire-feeling.

I like this. This is worded very accurately… it wasn’t often that ‘unloading’ was actually satisfying (unless you find shooting a wall satisfying). It was when unloading actually cleared a room. It was rare. Most of the time I was popping specials and firing 1-3 shots to cover a flanked ally. This might just be my personal experience, but I think that I can still clear most of the patrol with an 8-16 shot rush of lead.

Finally, I’d like to point this out specifically:

How about you don’t target a player? What does blaming @AgainPyromancer do for you aside from make you feel better? Stop that, you rapscallion! If you want to make progress, attack the argument, don’t just go off like a cannon. Moreover, the ‘most fun weapon in the game’ is a subjective thought, otherwise known as an opinion. I happen to be absolutely bonkers for the Spear on Kerillian and the Longbow brings me such joy when I sink a max range head-shot.

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The new BoP are better.

The reload mechanic actually gives it more personality.
In the 400 hours ive played this game i never really used it, however now i have because of all the fuss about them - they are pretty fun.

On top of all this they just received a buff versus boss damage.

I dont see what you are all complaining about.
You want to be able to shoot 30 shots (assuming thats the ammo capacity) in one go?
Is it really so bad to only be able to shoot 15 instead with the rework?

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