And this is a problem because…? Are you suggesting flameweave, fb or shotguns require more aim? It’s a continious beam, aiming skills aren’t what this staff is about in the first place.
By doing 1 damage per tick. If using the staff properly, you would have done more damage in the same timeframe, than doing 1 dmg with the staff and getting your ult up. It’s not effecient at all, but it IS a tool to recharge ult or clear overheat, yes.
This and the flameweave staff on pyro are possibly the only examples of temp health on crit working in the entire game. Problem?
Yes it does. Any weapon with any proc on crit will work against ‘invulnerable’ targets on crits. Beam staff has higher tickrate and thus higher critrate than other weapons. Working as intended - it’s a feature of the staff.
Most ranged weapons do 1 dmg on headshot against super armor, except on crit. This is the same for all weapons. Beam allows for a faster critrate than other ranged weapons - thus does damage when it crits on headshots against superarmor.
Most melee weapons have “crit windows” as well where several consecutive strikes will crit.
Wiggling is a tool and feature of the beamstaff, and anyone trying play like this 100% of the time is lowering their effective output tremendously. It IS weaker than other staffs and other careers. This cannot be “beside the point.”
You claim this post isn’t about the staff being overpowered, but if you disagree with all the mechanics of the staff and want it changed, then I’m afraid that’s exactly what you’re saying, even though you claim not to.
There are so many things in this game so much more effective than the wiggle build that it’s becoming comical how these threads keep popping up. Clearly people just want to remove things from the game they think are unfun or doesn’t conform with how THEY want to play the game.
I don’t play the wiggle build and probably never will as I grew tired of beamstaff long before the first nerf to it. I find it annoying to play with people who use it, because I know they’re going to underperform massively as Pyro.
Yet I’m not about to agree to remove playstyles and buildchoices from the game, just because I personally don’t like them.
There actually isn’t any objective evidence you can present… because it doesn’t exist. The only videos on this are extremely canned and fail to include the part where a single shot from any other class does the same thing in less time… or a single melee character left to their own devices… or anything, really… As for cards, even if they weren’t disingenuously cherry picked, people aren’t grasping the fact that damage is badly skewed by the presence of crits, AoEs, and DoTs, of which Sienna has all three in spades. Take a look at every supposedly “OP” character that ppl complain about and you’ll notice that every single one of them has at least one, usually 2-3, of those factors present. It’s not a balance issue, it’s a “people don’t understand how numbers work” issue. The irony is that classes that don’t have those artificial factors still match the numbers of those that do just fine… soooo… go go feelings vs logic?
Dunno about you, but if the same topic gets brought up again and again by different people, there might just be something to it? And, as far as I can see, throughout all these threads its the same 4-5 people that are against a fix (im saying fix and not nerf because it is a combination of abusing different mechanics that were never intended to work like that, aswell as RSS being flat out bugged, since i cant believe the flat 2 seconds is intended at this point) but an ever increasing pool of people for a fix.
So you’re saying if the same 4-5 people made 4-5 threads saying it was fine, that would intrinsically have as much value as the same 4-5 people making 4-5 threads saying it isn’t, despite one group repeatedly relying on objective analysis and the other trying to refute objective analysis on the grounds of, “yeah but I don’t like it?” You’re full on arguing that an appeal to popularity fallacy and argumentum ad nauseum are meaningful and have merit. That’s ridiculous and the same exact thinking that led to the Huntsman nuke.
Never intended? Based on what evidence? A single, instantaneous, spammable, infinite-ranged arrow/bullet does what Burning Head does and that’s without the drawback of using a tunnel-vision weapon with constant movement that dashes visual SA to the wind on the squishiest character in the game.
No, that’s how appeal to the masses fallacy and argumentum ad nauseum works… Devs taking feedback at face value is a terrible approach as evidenced by the multiple examples of terrible balance changes that came about as a result, most of which had to be reverted.
Which is something beam pyro can’t do without either a conc pot (ie. something other classes can do) or a macro (ie. cheating). That argument also disregards when every other class/character can do to bosses.
Debatable… and that’s not me being pithy. What evidence do you have to suggest they’re debating in goodfaith? The evidence against is that the people I’ve been addressing have routinely employed major errors in logic and clearly defined logical fallacy throughout their arguments. How can someone debate in good faith while simultaneously misrepresenting everything?
You havent read the OP, then i guess. Thats the whole issue, she can do it without a conc or a macro. You dont seem to know how far people are taking this “build”, but still defend it.
No, I’m well aware of what it’s capable of, you just have to sacrifice a ton to do it and it still doesn’t do a whole lot. I’m not defending the stupid full-on CDR lameness build, just pointing out, like a slew of other people, that there’s really nothing objectively obscene about it… it’s just different. Impotent… but different. There’s a reason we don’t see much of it ever, if at all. I’ve run it, immediately realized it was pretty gd bad compared to using the weapon normally (something others have already clearly pointed out), and have since not seen a single instance of it being used in any of my hundreds upon hundreds of Legend matches. The fact that people are trying to blow it out of proportion is disingenuous to the max.
Would you care to elaborate?
It wasn’t any less fallacious when hedge said it vis a vis the previously mentioned irrefutable reasons that were presented to him when he made that assertion. Good means of drawing dev attention? Sure. Good means of making actual decisions? Absolutely not.
Beam staff has a huge weakness of severely limited FoV, audiovisual situational awareness, lack of damage while beaming, less range than any other ranged weapon than Flamewave or Drake, lack of mobility while beaming, less ranged DPS than most weapons, and an inability for the beam to CC without several seconds of sustained single-target damage or a burst-shot. Aka… multiple a trade offs.
Please refer to here, which was never addressed. Yes, it’s my own post but if you’re going to rehash old stuff I’m gonna rehash the parts where I point out what’s wrong with it instead of retyping the same things over and over. Ultimately, its the devs’ game and they can do whatever they want. If they wanna tell people who can say what on their forums, that’s their right. It doesn’t mean their reasoning for doing so would be sound or logical or that their approach would make sense if that’s what they decided to do though. So now not only was the post you’re linking based around two fallacies (appeal to majority, appeal to popularity) but just linking it is an appeal to authority when that same authority has already said the beam staff is working as intended. As such, on top of every fallacious argument being presented to support “omg beam staff op plz nerf,” we’ve got mega-bias circular logic at play where devs are supposedly simultaneously a) not a sufficient authority to be taken at face value in terms of telling those people calling for nerf that they’re wrong and it’s working as intended, but also b) supposedly reasonable reasonable enough to reference as a cheap way of telling your opponents to shut up without having an actual argument as to why they should.
Geez. I leave for the evening and return to this? How did we go from a civil conversation about this specific weapon mechanic to this hostile tirade against one another?
@Avar@Licious-D This is not the place for comparisons to other classes, appeals to scoreboards, or ad hominem attacks on other players. You also appear to now be completely off topic and have not addressed any of my initial or subsequent arguments. This is supposed to be a place to have a civil conversation about a game we all enjoy. Even if you disagree with others’ point of view, that does not justify hostility and personal attacks.
@Fatshark_Hedge Part of your job as Community Manager is to police these forums and to prevent personal attacks. This level of hostility here is completely uncalled for. I suggest you delete the posts unrelated to this conversation and/or start banning users for inappropriate behavior. Or start granting partial moderator control to the original poster so that I can police my own thread. This is completely ridiculous and wouldn’t stand on many other game forums.
(In the interest of transparency and to promote conversation, here is my reply to the OP and their subsequent follow-up (in italics). I believe this to be on topic because it is in direct response to the OP and because it addresses issues that address issues with people pointing out that there were issues with on topic things. in the first place… I also feel it’s silly that I should have to point this out to other adults.)
Because, as with every time this has come up, one side of the conversation is using logic and the other isn’t. When the side that is using logic brings this up, the side that isn’t takes it personally when it’s really just people coldly pointing out that the thinking they used to arrive at their conclusions is screwy or that their arguments are degraded by their employing multiple major fallacies.
Please point out an ad hominem attack aside from you calling people uncivil for formulating logical arguments against. Also, in both your first and third posts you repeatedly use subjective, qualitative terminology like “fast,” “large,” “high damage,” “short amount of time,” “great at special sniping.” This intrinsically implies, demands, and depends upon comparison with other weapons and classes.
What you’re trying to do now is called “moving the goalposts.” While I can’t speak to your motives, that does seem to be the theme of the original post in that arguments against something you don’t like were repeatedly shot down, so with a lack of counter-points the argument is simply being re-framed in an attempt to make it stronger or more appealing. At any rate, you made qualitative comparison the topic when you brought subjective, qualitative comparisons into play.
Again, point out hostility or personal attacks. This is a civil conversation. Pointing out major flaws and fallacies in points brought forward is neither incivility, nor is it hostile. Blunt =/= uncivil. Logic =/= uncivil. Similarly, fallacy =/= civil. Calls for complete control over a narrative =/= civil.
You made a thread ripe with qualitative comparisons then got upset when people challenged your comparisons or called out things that weren’t based in the realm of reality… Now you call people hostile/uncivil for pointing out holes in your argument, and, without actually addressing the issue of repeatedly fallacy, you want full control over the narrative? I can’t speak for everyone but I live in a democratic society as I suspect most users do. What you’re asking for here goes against everything good-hearted and fair-minded people stand for. Might doesn’t make right, and the kind of thinking that goes into your request is reprehensible.
Avar
1h
I never said anyone was lying and arguing fallacy when it’s been pointed out that something is clearly fallacy is not “good faith.”
You repeatedly and continuously alluded to the beam staff using qualitative language. This intrinsically implies, requires, and demands comparison as it is a comparison in and of itself. You can’t argue anything in that thread is off topic without first addressing that. Again, pointing out when people are arguing using fallacies is not “attacking” others.
There is nothing in any of my posts that goes against the text or spirit of the community guidelines. You have repeatedly abused the forum’s auto-moderation system.
lol, to the people reporting Avars posts, which goes against the community guidelines btw. You are the reason that this thread is constantly getting locked. And Avar, there is no point in discussing this with them further. They refuse to acknowledge any logical points brought up that counter their argument, which is completely based on their personal feelings. According to what I’ve read here, they get to decide on what is “over powered”, or “broken”. When you show them that other ranged weapons do more damage, and do it faster, they simply switch the discussion to something else.
The entire argument is insane if you actually stop and think about it. People are upset because the beam staff is one of the easiest weapons to master, and forgives bad heat management far more than any other staff. It would be the equivalent of asking for a nerf to Krubers Halberd because it’s one of the best melee weapons. That way people might use the mace or swords more.
What they should be focusing their energy into is getting a buff for all the under preforming weapons instead of trying to nerf a perfectly viable staff.
I actually played Sienna all day yesterday to test out the beam staff again. I used all 3 of her classes. And the beam staff wiggle is really only viable on Pyro, and it’s still complete shít compared to just shotgun blasting everything. I preformed way better in games where I managed my heat properly, AKA I didn’t use the “crits remove heat” trait on the staff. Instead I tried a bunch of different builds, with hunter, barrage, RSS, etc. They all preformed well. But I preferred the 20% less heat generated so I could get off more shotgun blasts. I was top of every single game, normally by about 300-400 kills and the most special and elite kills as well. I even got told this during one of my matches,
So again, using the staff properly will give you far better results than beam wiggling. There was never a point in the 10 hours I played yesterday that I ever needed to beam wiggle on any of Sienna’s 3 classes using the beamstaff. And when I did to test it for “science”, the other people in my party killed everything before I could even beam wiggle my ULT back. That’s the difference, good players are not going to let you sit there and beam wiggle across a horde. They are going to kill it themselves. If you are getting out killed by a beam wiggling Sienna, you only have your self to blame.
Ah, apologies, I just scrolled through the entire thread and 2 of your posts are reported as well. No, I haven’t reported any posts in this thread because that’s childish BS. But ok, favoritism lol
EDIT: And someones’ gone and reported another post and got this thread locked again. It’s almost like it’s pointless discussing anything on this website lol.
All this is a strawman. Please re-read the original post.
I would say most of us want that too.
Thanks for taking the time to try it out. I agree that the beam wiggle is most effective on pyro, because her ult is the best out of the 3 sienna careers. I also find the RSS build stronger than heat reduction on crit, since you could just run exhaust on pyro to clear heat. Or you use the temp health on crit to just vent.
Regardless of trait or career, I think the beam wiggle has a place for generating temp health on crit.
Again, the wiggle is strongest when you weave it into beam’s rotation and use it as an additional tool in the staff’s arsenal. There are times it is effective and there are times it is not.
