the victor ax has to do with victor, after all the ax will be used on victor, but I still don’t understand the problem of just improving some skills instead of talking all the time that some other classes need more, after all, both things can’t be done?
these changes would be made with improvements in other characters too, and I don’t think the nerf in double shot is necessary at all, it’s nobody’s fault that the other two talents are boring.
I’m just trying to understand the problem of buffing victor’s ax (and other much smaller but important things) and pyromancer at the same time
Victor is already a very strong character on all careers and any additional buffs would surely make him overpowered.
I think you don’t understand how large the numbers are that you propose. I mean Zealot is already braindead easy to play and overflowing with power and speed buffs. But just to set this into perspective. Based on your suggestion Zealot would get:
- 30 % power bonus by his passiuve (already in live version)
- 18 % melee power (new Unyielding purpose)
- 21 % melee damage bonus on armored enemies (new “Hardened inside and out”)
- 30 % power bonus (new “Flood of Faith”) + another 15 % for armored enemies
This means Zealot can have 78 % more melee power against all enemies and 114 % more melee damage against armored enemies. I would have to do some math but I am pretty sure that this comes dangerously close to left-clicking one-hitting Stormvermins on Cataclysm. And to put this even more in perspective. The hardest hitting career in the whole game (Grail Knight) has a total damage bonus of 75 % (85 % if you take the team buff into account, I have ignored Smiter for both careers which makes it even worse). So with your suggestions you would buff Zealot above the hardest hitting career in the whole game.
And to make matters worse, you make it stupidiously easy to gain these buffs (hitting, killing enemies) and to keep them (20 seconds duration) active. You get stronger by killing stuff so you can kill stuff even faster and keep stronger. That is the same out-of-control-spiral as the critical hit-attack speed loop that Swift Slaying has. This is boring, bad design, in no way interesting and completely unfun. And on top of it all, completely broken. I mean as I tried getting the Against the Grain Cataclysm challenge, I failed a few times before I said: Screw it. Took Zealot, Griffon Foot and Axe&Falchion and rolf stomped the map because nothing could stop me already.
I will skip on BH, not my class. But looking at Warrior Priest you also buff him unreasonably. For Divine Excoriation, it seems you want to make the Shockwave available while not having Righteous Fury active (which goes completely against the design of the row) and give him AoE damage during Righteous Fury. And on Level 30 you want to increase his fury gains by 100 % for a passive which has a high uptime in Legend and Cataclysm games already.
For WHC, you want to give him another permanent 15 % Crit Chance because hitting 4 times in 8 seconds is not difficult. Actually you need one second for that in some cases. This means he would have 5 % (normal passive) + 5 % (WHC special passive) + 15 % (new Riposte) + 10 % Weapon properties and potentially another 5 % from Wild Fervour. A whopping 40 % Crit Chance. That kind of stuff is already broken on Pyromancer and it would be even more broken on WHC. Any crit chance total over 10 % simply runs out of control in this game.
And looking at the weapons you are giving out +10 % damage candies like there is no tomorrow.
All of these changes are a buff over their current strongest talents. These numbers are HUGE and would make Victor very boring and unfun to play. We have seen what happens when stuff is overpowered (old MFB, SotT). And we still have stuff in this game which is overpowered and is in dire need of nerfs (Coruscation Staff, Griffon Foot, BW, etc. etc. etc …).
I would ask for people to make stuff more interesting or more thematic instead of dumping power, crit chance and damage on everything. Because it does not make for very appealing, interesting, fun or cool gameplay.
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No problem there, I have a feeling a lot of people agrees with you there. I think single axes were really pushed out of the game as of late and could use some love.
What I was saying is that it’s not just Victor’s axe but all of them.
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first, these numbers are fictitious and are just an example of what could be done, but apparently you don’t like to use smart talents but use super bland talents like: 10% mitigation, 5% power, among others. I believe that as you said it has to be thematic characters, but I don’t believe that they want to make big changes, so I opted for simpler things, if there’s something better great, and in the matter of the duration of the buffs, these are things to be well thought as a guy said that the bonus was little you said it was a lot, I believe that yes it could be for example instead of 20s being 5s or 3s. but they are just ideas.
Now to say that these weapon damage buffs are bad, I can’t defend… I don’t know how the damage issue in the game works because I don’t use mods to test, but when I say 10% more damage I mean this: if the ax does 30 damage, +10% the damage would be 33 base from the ax and the heavy +50% if it did 45 base damage would go to 67 damage… I don’t know where that 67 damage would leave the ax op or easy to play.
I don’t think it’s interesting to increase victor’s flail attack speed just because the flail and shield is faster, I think this speed is already good, just a small damage buff so he doesn’t get forgotten among many others, you can say that the buff was big or small, now all the weapons and zealot I mentioned would be great and necessary.
and the WP does need an improvement in the scoring talent, this talent is very weird and weak
i kinda hate it when people say stuff like “% dmg buff” or “small dmg buff” because it doesn’t actually mean anything, buffing dmg only has an impact on gameplay if it results in enemies dying faster and that means less hits needed.
(with the exception of allied chip dmg ofc but i don’t think it you want to buff it only on damaged enemies)
it kinda results in these discussions between people who know exactly what those dmg number changes would actually result in (ie people who look at HP/dmg numbers and do the math) and exclude all casuall players who can’t be bothered
if you want my two cents on the 1h axe, it should work like it did in V1, it should hit 1 singular thing and if the target is any horde/trash tier unit it should always die from 1 hit, maybe give it a push atack that cleaves 3-4 slaverats and kills maybe 2 of em and stagger the last, on cata, depending on how good this is in practice give it more or less atackspeed until it reaches a comfortable spot.
I’m not against a Riposte rework of some sort, but that’s way too much crit chance, and very passive and uninteresting as a proccing mechanic.
Not really a fan of either of the suggested level 30 changes. The Unending Hunt is already very good and my personal preference with WHC, I don’t see a reason to buff it further, though I’ll say your suggested buff is at least tame. I like the general theme of I Shall Judge You All being a debuff effect, would rather see that aspect tweaked to make it more desirable than adding a team buff on top of it like you’ve suggested.
The buff I’d rather see for Weight of Fire is having it also increase ranged cleave (it currently ONLY affects damage, even though the description says “ranged power”, which suggests otherwise). That would potentially allow Volley Bow to regain a little bit of penetration on hordes. I’m fine with talents that aren’t good for every weapon variant.
BH generally I’ve spent a long time thinking about what sort of things I’d like to see done to the class. I do think the main things that need to be done to him is a Double Shotted nerf (~50% CDR that can only proc once per ult), an Indiscriminate Blast cooldown buff, and reworking his temp health talents. Ideally all those changes would happen in one patch.
I’m honestly more worried about Zealot’s general power level than I am about him having competitive talent options on every row. Dude is already cracked out of his mind and I couldn’t support any change that would be an overall buff to him. The two main changes I’d like to see done with him is firstly making Fiery Faith apply to melee power ONLY, then secondly some rework/passive/talent to make him play more friendly with health regen/restoration abilities to reduce toxicity with Zealot players. Icelator’s class balance mod makes his ult convert all green health to temp health as a baseline effect, this is inelegant but I’m not really expecting to see any further full class reworks being done by FS, so this would be a fine enough bandaid solution. I do want to qualify I’d only want to see this done alongside the Fiery Faith change ontherwise it would just be a buff overall and as stated I’m not cool with buffing Zealot.
Divine Excoriation is probably fine as is. I don’t personally use it but I’ve seen plenty of people who use it, so I don’t see a reason to buff it.
Unyielding Blessing is already my favourite pick in the lvl 30 row, I definitely don’t see a reason to buff it. The extra duration and ability to run through warpfire and ratling fire is also a godsend as is, so yeah I actually think that talent row is already very well balanced.
I like the suggested combo change, don’t think it needs a damage increase. I’d already use it a lot with BH if only he had access to THP on cleave. Only other thing I’d like to see done to it is a slightly quicker/smoother transition from push attack to light aattack.
I’m not gonna get into 1h Axe, that weapon could have easily have its own thread.
Do you mean while blocking? Eh I have no feelings about that suggestion either way really, but I can’t say move speed while blocking is a problem I’ve every noticed with it. It’s got good dodges to circumvent that anyway.
Flail seems fine to me. It’s primarily a Zealot weapon but that’s fine, it’s a good pick for him already.
I presume you’re referring to the 1h variant? If so that thing already has a good amount of stamina, I don’t think adding more would really change anything about it.
Nah Tome and Hammer is already a good pick with great utility, I don’t think it needs anything.
In both cases I think there are more elegant changes that could be made. Rep Pistol could and has already had multiple whole threads dedicated to it. I won’t go into that one again here. Griffinfoot could use to be brought in line a bit, I’m not sure a straight damage reduction would be the way to go there though. Again that one is worth its own whole thread to discuss.
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Of course I understand that these numbers are just examples and prone to be changed. However, most people don’t chose randomly. The reason why I stretched the numbers in the post was to make you aware of how much outside of being balanced you are. Even if you only take half of the values of what you suggested initially, it would still be overpowered to broken.
And it does not change the inherent issue the talents I named as well. That they are boring, unfun, absolutely not smart but equally super bland to the talents you are showcasing. All you are doing is more dps dumping in a game which already has to much dps. It simply will not make the game or the career more fun or more interesting to play. It will have a detrimental effect as we have seen on past experience.
As for the weapons, I have not said much. Others have covered this in better detail. I just don’t think that adding more power/damage on weapons or careers or talents in this game is currently the way to go because it will make the overall experience more bland and boring. Fatshark has tried this with a weapon balance which I consider failed where they mindlessy buffed the majority of the weapons but missed out nerfing the actual problematic weapons in a suitable manner. And even worse brought out weapons afterwards which are even more problematic and unfun.
Lastly, this is more of a personal headache. I am not always 100 % sure about which talents you are talking as the translation is different from what I am used to. It is mostly a language thingy. If it may help, we can both use the official english translation of the talents which can be found - for example - here:
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I understand what you mean, but playing the game modes I realized that the
2 zealot level 30 talents don’t even compare with the anesthesiologist, because one increases the melee power a little (it already does enough damage), and the other reduces the range of the career skill, which in normal game any talent level 30 charges the career skill very fast, sometimes even faster than the flagellant fervor that after the end of the attacks or the skill that starts the countdown for the interval reduction, so the anesthesia if used well can reset several times, so it is clear that the other 2 talents need a buff or rework, preferably very thematic. and the buffs I proposed in armor damage are great, because I think it’s unnecessary to increase the damage all because it will be op and weird because this function is already for the bardin slayer and not for the zealot, so mitigation talents 10% of the damage I think is unnecessary , it could easily be something other like the power of the piston than the bardin. final thoughts on the
ZEALOT: I don’t think you have to clog the character with damage, I don’t think he has to be very tanky, nor does he have to exceed the slayer’s damage, but I don’t make interesting changes to make the gameplay nicer because of a talent that combo with a rajadeira beast doesn’t work, this combo is op and boring, for me you can take it out of the game and do something more focused on melee in which the character’s strength should be, and if he receives the buff in armor damage in talent level 25 the slayer should also receive buffs too.
this mentality of: “this class has a lot of damage and it’s op, let’s not leave the other classes like this”, this argument makes no sense, the weapons I mentioned are yes MUCH weaker than the others and deserve some advantage in being used until even a special attack (which would be a lot of work) .
WP: persogem top, and the only thing that really bothers me about it is the divine scoring, I’ve used it in plot, chaos wastes, everything and really this talent is inferior to the others, it’s extremely unnecessary considering that it’s in the same line we have a talent that will greatly increase the damage done and the other a sensational healing support, divine excoriation needs something more, and as someone said there: “it’s out of the class theme” and yes I know it’s soon other things can be done: increasing the boost angle or stunning enemies increases the fury bonuses received for a short period, this can all be discussed and see several things that can be done now want to tell me that divine excoriation is as good as the other two I really can’t, he’s not a bad talent, but he’s not as good as the others in the lineup and I don’t see a problem with him getting a buff, and regarding the level 30 talents I think they really don’t need to be changed, but the question of not being able to be thrown during the unshakable blessing I think it’s GREAT, if he received this it would already be amazing, the 100% fury buff would not be necessary at all.
BH: I think the class is balanced, but I think the character has no gameplay personality, I think the talents are boring and only throws damage forward, I don’t think you have to nerf the double shot, but buff the indiscriminate shot or even change the way he does it it works for him not to be op, honestly I hate BH level 25 talents, I find them boring and boring, I don’t see why bh has damage reduction, because he is a walking raw damage the disadvantage has to be this fragility, the same kerilian keeps paths that have nicer talents and don’t need damage mitigation. I don’t know what would be interesting about him, so I proposed a buff in the talent (10) weight of fire so he can reload the repeater pistol faster and be able to do more builds with different weapons, the question is, I would be op the repeater pistol ? I don’t think so, would it be good? I don’t think so either, but it would be more viable and that’s already great for me.
WH: balanced character and what I proposed was just changes or in his talents or small buffs just to make the gameplay cooler, for example, in the infinite hunt I proposed that when releasing the career skill and hitting 10 enemies it would be 40% of the bar but if hitting 20 enemies would be 50% of the bar. I don’t know where 10% skill bar at one time or another would destroy the game.
and talents as an answer would need a rework or as someone who has a photo of kruber said: having some just that the effect was applied or some more impactful visual effect, the talent I would judge everyone is very boring and I think something more thematic would be nicer, otherwise I think it’s a very good character and small changes would be nice.
WEAPONS: honestly I found the damage as I explained in the replay pistol to be great and different from what some people said that it’s just putting more damage in the game, I’m not proposing to buff things op but things that are bad since the beginning.
I liked your ideas, but what I did in the BH talent, was to indirectly buff the repeating pistol along with the buff I would give it (especially the damage buff that is very simple for FS to do), this buff on this talent would improve only the repeating pistol and the other weapons wouldn’t even notice so much.
on the question of
WH I agree with you. however I would like to see the mini buff on the infinite hunt that I proposed, and a change or improvement in the response talent, such as some visual effect and a sound that the talent was activated.
BH, I also agree, minus the double shot nerf.
ZEALOT: Perfect placement, I’ve told some friends of mine several times about this talent being active only in melee attacks, I even commented on it here almost now lol, and yes, I don’t think it needs to be exploding with power, and yes, delete these slash beast builds and make him more focused on melee, and also remove this damage mitigation talent 10% zealot doesn’t have to hold so much damage, just the armor of faith (20) is enough, and that flagellant fervor could be something else (increase armor damage and lose bonus attack speed) and this talent go to the slayer, and in the flood of faith talent 
honestly I think it is SUPER unnecessary to take this talent, even if he received any bonus at the end of the duration would be more interesting. I don’t think he has to increase his average damage, but he has some talents that are depressing. defending certain ones because of a slash beast build doesn’t work.
WP: then I disagree with you, as I mentioned a little while ago, divine excoriation is a talent that is unnecessary to be caught and is well below your line talents, I’ve played with it with every imaginable build and there’s really no way to compare he with: a top heal for his team and a top dps… he would need some buff while he’s not during good rage, something like that kruber FK talent that increases the regeneration of the team’s career skill by 100, something of this type, and I really believe that the unshakable blessing buff of receiving 100% more fury in duration is unnecessary and bad, but the question of you not being thrown during the use of the skill would be sensational and that yes I think it is necessary .
WEAPONS: as you said, many of these “buffs” would be almost imperceptible like the 1 stamina on the hammer of 1h and less slow on the sword when defending, it would be a small change but it would help a little at times.
and on the issue of the flail… I don’t think it’s fair for the flail to be worse than the flail and shield, I think a little more damage would reduce this difference.
but in the general context of the game I see that victor’s classes are balanced and just these small changes already gave an improvement in victor’s forgotten builds without making the other builds more op.
I also have some problems with the translation.
The problem with the mace/hammer is not the amount of stamina, but the push attack doesn’t have a significant impact. The effect is more noticeable with 2 horizontal attacks after the push, you can aim the heads more, and the horizontal attacks cleave more than the diagonal ones. The diagonal attacks of these weapons hinder their crowd control ability.
I know that, but this buff on vigor would just be to give a little help