Balance the game

The only reason HD2 should ever be brought up in balance discussion is to show what happens when you have an incompetent balance team. The devs didn’t even understand their own game system for god’s sake. For example, in one instance, the devs buffed the Eruptor’s explosion damage to increase it’s weakspot damage, but they forgot weakspots were immune to explosion damage. In another case, they inexplicably nerfed the stagger of the slug shotgun to stop it from being used as a sniper instead of doing the obvious thing of nerfing it’s damage drop-off or bullet velocity.

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vt2 also has really very challenging end events, giving a sense of struggle everytime.

i know this could be also because of problems with balance but in darktide, the end events in most of the map, they don’t exist and are just some sort of filler. balance aside, I think more challenging end events should exist, promoting cooperation and working as a team. in fact maps like: hab dreyko, silo cluster etc. are very hard because people can’t work as a team. ending in being surrounded by a lot of enemies cause not doing objectives, usually resulting in a wipe

not asking for end events with the demonic eye but just making end events way more challenging and long.

nerfing mobility which i think is imo the biggest issue in the game with certain weapons, kiting everything, being invicible shouldn’t be easy to do as thing

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Yes yes, everything is a joke if you’re using meta builds and those are power steamrolling as you said. That much is true.

But try playing off-meta things and you’ll quickly realize that the power creep wasn’t that fast. Drop the Voice of Command, throw Combat Blade and Dueling Sword into the dumpster. Don’t even look at Plasma Gun, Zarona Revolver or the Psyker’s Staves. And now suddenly you’re gonna realize you’re dying much faster than you used to in the earlier patches. A group of Dreg Ragers mow you down like a shredder mows the lawn, Reapers locking onto you make getting to them a distant dream. A mixed horde of Bulwarks and Dreg Ragers could just as well be the fan from Relay Station as far as melee is concerned.

The power creep is terrible and should make the game trivial, right? So what, just buff the enemies?!? But instead of restoring the balance that way, the game is getting further polarized: the meta builds truly don’t care while all the off-meta things are getting left behind more and more. You either pick a meta loadout and play Auric as if it was Sedition or play off-meta just to get bent if you happen to be left in a clutch or otherwise difficult situation.

I get your point about power creep, and I do not deny that it is correct. But you’re presenting it as if the power creep had only one vile side (game becoming trivial with meta build) while there is another that is just as bad.

Posts like yours are the reason developers think spawning a Flamer out of thin air 10 meters behind you when you’re not looking is fine (which I hope you realize is intentional behavior, since given your nickname you might remember devs revealing that it was the case for Vermintide). I think we should strive for balance, but also for the game’s challenge to be fair instead of making every match a contest of which side - the players or the director - have more ridiculous tricks up their sleeve.

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The game’s balance, even in its current state, is objectively the best it has ever been.

Basically every weapon is viable and capable. Every class and nearly every build is useable.

As is, there’s nothing tremendously overpowered that’s going to auto-play games for people or allow underskilled players and groups to survive content they’re not ready for. There’s likewise nothing so bad that itll sink a run or force a player to donwgrade difficulty they’re otherwise experienced enough for.

The highest difficulties remain beyond the capacity of the overwehelmingly vast majority of player’s abilities, fewer still find such content easy or trivial.

There’s a few abilities id upgrade or slightly change, but not really anything I’d say is in dire need of a nerf.

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Did you try autopistol in auric maelstrom?
I am reluctant at picking a simple tactical axe for such diff (but I will assuredly)
I plainly agree with OxygenCrimson. Players pick metas, and so they don’t see the real difficulty. They say game is too easy, but they just play with all OP talents and just best weapons.
So, I really think that they should nerf the weapons that are OP. Special attention to the bolter… it was garbage for a lot of time, and it is now meta. So let’s not put it again garbage…
In fact, in my opinion the balance has to come little by little. If they start nerfing 50% of weapons, several lightly and several strongly, for sure they will break all balance.
They should work on a few candidates. The weapons OP for a long time… PG and revolver.
Then they need also to see what talent make warp damages psykers so high in damages. (yes I don’t play it, I just see numbers)
And here, they should start with just that… except if they have already an idea to balance DS / Daggers and tactical axe. For me tact axe needs a buff. For dagger, shroudfield is the culprit, for DS, don’t know… surely damages are a little too high (but please don’t nerf DS before PG).
And let’s say it, there are few that could be buffed slightly (tactical axe doesn’t need a big buff, just a tiny one I think - but sure it needs testing), or stronger (autopistol - for me more ammos).

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I feel like you’re trying to invoke Poe’s Law here. Alright, I’ll bite.

As is, there’s nothing tremendously overpowered that’s going to auto-play games for people or allow underskilled players and groups to survive content they’re not ready for.

VoC DS/Plasma Veteran + Smite/Purgatus Psyker. Take two of each for maximum circus.

There’s likewise nothing so bad that itll sink a run or force a player to donwgrade difficulty they’re otherwise experienced enough for.

Exec Stance Chainaxe/Lasgun Veteran, Venti BB DCS/Shotgun Psyker. Take Shredder for maximum ammo consumption.

There’s a few abilities id upgrade or slightly change, but not really anything I’d say is in dire need of a nerf.

DS, VoC, Purgatus, Smite and Zarona are fine as well? Alright, I’m out. I have been outmatched.

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it’s natural for anyone to want to clear the hardest difficulty. that’s why most players try to stretch beyond their limits, using OP weapons to play on the highest difficulty. the middle-tier players (though i’m not sure how many of them there are) might be satisfied, but for the top-tier players, it’s nothing but boring. some players seek challenge, others want to immerse themselves in the game’s world and take it slow, and some just want to have fun with friends. while it’s impossible to strike a perfect balance for all types of players, the current balance is clearly too broken.
if the weapons were nerfed from their current state, they would probably be useless against the highest difficulty. but that’s not the fault of the weapons—it’s simply because your skill level is too low. most players throw a crack grenade the moment a single crusher gets close to them. when a horde of ragers appears, they immediately activate their voc and slice them up with a PS. they’re relying too much on their weapons and abilities, and can’t even dodge or block properly. how many players can take down a crusher using only a catachan sword? how many can defeat a single rager with just a shovel, without taking damage? difficulty should depend on player skill, and if the game is flooded with OP weapons, the difficulty loses its meaning.

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I haven’t played with it in over a year to be honest, and that goes to one of the other issues with the game: It’s really got too many weapons for a super finely tuned meta balance range

Between the different shoulder Las/Auto guns, both Revolver and both Laspistol variants, and the Autpistol, that’s 23 different weapons. Tabletop 40k considers all those just 2 different weapons. With the sheer quantity of weapons we have, there’s always going to be a “meta” and weapons that are better than others, the important part is that the capability floor ensures all remain viable.

I’d absolutely agree there that people who feel the game is too easy probably do so with the top end of everything and are choosing to forego ways to make the game easier

Here’s where I disagree. The issues with the game being “too easy” are really only seen at the most extreme end of the player curve, largely among a proportionally tiny number of players with enough logged time to consider the game a job. If they want a greater challenge, they have options in that regard, they’re just choosing not to take advantage of them.

Is that going to float Malice level players through Damnation or Auric levels on their own? Not in my experience. I’ve seen team comps like that wipe on Malice and Heresy more than once. You can’t just give people a PG and Smite and expect them to walk through the game’s highest difficulties if they have no sense of timing, awareness, movement, or a good understanding of the game’s mechanics, at least in the several hundred hours I have invested in this game I’ve yet to see that.

Of the several different groups I play this game with, only a couple people are good enough to play the game’s highest difficulties, most play Malice or Heresy, and even with all these tools most find those mid difficulties plenty challenging.

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Throw in unfulfilling new player/endgame experience and what you have is an identity crisis.

I think it’s important to keep in mind that we only just got crafting implemented. Whatever ultimate balance will come, will come. The fact that the game is in a RELATIVELY good spot despite everyone having easier access to god-rolls is a good sign.

For my part, I’ve been inspired by the no talent point/grey weapon challenges I’ve seen because they exhibit the kind of gameplay I really want out of Darktide. Having to play a smart, coordinated game where you manage dwindling resources in the face of countless hordes. Where a new wave of enemies sends a chill down your spine as you decide to scramble forward into the unknown or lock down the hallway you find yourself in. The only time I’ve really felt that recently was doing a 2-player Damnation Maelstrom because nobody joined – best match I’ve played in a while though!

The other aspect I’d really appreciate seeing is armour rebalance, so that it actually matters. I’d be happy halving the number of crushers that spawn, for instance, if their carapace armour meant a damn. Even (especially?) if it means a few Zealots going down because their daggers don’t rend everything anymore :grin:

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You’re right… in fact, I have also said that they should buff the remaining weapons too weak… but sure, they can’t let the metas here without something be done.
Both options are good for me… at this point, I really don’t care how they balance the game… by buffing, by nerfing… don’t care. But I want some balance.

One point that I cannot agree. It is talents. Several talents needs to be nerfed. Here that’s certain. Also, several needs to be reworked/buffed. But you cannot only buff weak talents…

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but isn’t that simply because there are so many new players or returning players with a gap in experience? right now, there are tons of players in the highest difficulty with levels in the double digits. reaching the highest difficulty after just a few weeks of playing? is it strange to think that’s not right? if anything, player skill should have dropped since the update, but the game has gotten easier, which clearly shows the balance is broken. even if the overall skill level of players improves over the next few months, the game will never get harder, only easier.

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I find myself actually agreeing with the OP.
Not in how difficult the highest level is right now, but in how we get there. I’ve written this before.
Player equipment is buffed, then we get more enemies, repeat. There must be a way, even in a horde shooter, to have more nuance in the challenges we face than just “insert more enemy”.
It used to be fun to plan a loadout so I got something for every challenge.

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Range enemies are extremely dangerous if you don’t kill them.

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Buffing Shooters back to where they were in the SotMG update while reducing Gunner spam would be a great start.

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I agree with OP on basically everything. The game is significantly easier after the talent tree rework, and it is really too easy now. Damnation used to be hard, like actually hard. Now I have 9 million ways to regenerate my toughness, enemies all get instakilled, monstrosities get demolished in under 15 seconds, it’s insane. I’m not joking when I say Auric Maelstrom can be a cakewalk, even with all the bs thrown at you.

Yeah, there are times when you get a bad team, and it feels much harder but balancing around people who don’t know how to play the game doesn’t make much sense imo. The point is that you shouldn’t be able to slide around through auric maelstrom instakilling everything with the knife the entire mission, while not being in any danger because you’re invulnerable from shout and have an 80% crit multiplier.

I don’t like to compare Vermintide to this game since the combat is very different, but in Vermintide 2, I still haven’t been able to beat Cataclysm, that difficulty is actually… Difficult! Damnation is so easy now that we need to have a bunch different modifiers to even make it a challenge, and even then, it isn’t enough most of the time.

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Welcome to power creep and why you don’t just buff things.

It applies even in PvE, despite what some people say. (Barring them just wanting to turn the game into a power fantasy)

I run a shovel plus bolt pistol on veteran with infiltrate instead of VoC on auric. (And bull butcher plus rumbler on ogryn, tactical axe plus revolver on zealot, and force sword plus trauma staff on psyker)

Even hordes of ragers and maulers and whatnot still aren’t that bad. The problem is generally players not knowing how to play in general. The people fall apart because people can’t handle a single rager, ultimately the game requires people to know what they’re doing to some extent, that doesn’t suddenly negate player power level. The talent tree rework alone buffed player power levels a ton when people were already doing HI5SG prior.

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Sure, possibly. Fact is we don’t have the data, so any indication of balance is necessarily observation-based. Yep, mine too!

This is only true if the game doesn’t change, which I find unlikely. Which is the point of what I am saying :smiling_face:

How it might change, that’s the interesting bit imo.

Yeah, the difference between someone who is good at FPS vs. someone who is good at 'Tide can be an incredible amount. Especially with how punishing the game can be. The learning should be engaging, and ideally conducted outside of Auric Maelstrom :laughing:

All the more reason to put some gates up for the hardest content!

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Haven’t read all of this a few scattered thoughts. Also reflecting on the difficulty in VT2 at cataclysm by comparison.

  1. I do think DT could benefit from a higher level difficulty - they key need being that it should not reward you ANYTHING additional for playing it. Same XP/resources as Auric, NO penances or anything tied to it. This will help keep people away from playing it that are just motivated for the rewards.

  2. In thinking about VT2, there are some things DT could do to ramp up the challenge:

  • Stronger hordes. The last event was great at showing how stronger hordes can add a nice complexity to the battle space.

  • Increase the need to block. Blocking is WAY under used in DT mostly because your attacks are fast enough to safely spam them to stagger enemies out of their attack animations and the dodge window is too generous. The result is that spamming dodge and attack gets you through 95% of encounters and the last 5% get countered by class abilities. Reducing attack impact/stagger and the dodge window would but more weight on blocking, which in turn puts more emphasis on your teammates helping each other out when pinned down. This is almost entirely absent in DT.

  • Tougher or more stagger resistant enemies would also increase the value of crowd control abilities and weapons, which are mostly left without a purpose right now. Smite is annoying because 95% of the time it is not needed for example.

  • Add more uncertainty. This new difficulty could incorporate 1-2 of the maelstrom modifiers in at random that do things to buff certain enemy types and add to challenge. Stuff like the VT2 twitch mode or mutator effects from Chaos Wastes.

  1. I don’t find the averages Auric player to be bad - I think most hold their own just fine. Every few games I see someone who is truly awful. But who knows, maybe they are just learning?
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I personally believe that this was done in an attempt to encourage the use of the new sprinting mechanic, mainly because blocking and sprinting both cost Stamina. However, I fully agree with you that blocking needs to become more mainstream, from one Vermintide player to another.

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A good chunk of balancing issues that you mention are things Fatshark has gone through for Vermintide 2. Maybe it is true, DT devs either only worked on the launch version of VT2 or not worked on it at all and never ever spoke to the devs doing VT2’s balancing/patching. Either that or they mindwipe everyone when being moved onto a different project.

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