Balance changes - Shade, Slayer, Handmaiden

I believe the three listed careers all need more life. This would be a pretty trivial change to implement and honestly would still make them harder higher skill plays then most other classes.

Shade is the only melee dps with 100 base life. The only reason I can see for this is to make her harder to play. I think it makes her unnecessarily hard to do Grims with and 25 life would by no means make her invincible she already has low THP generation and capping her max to make her even more fragile makes even small mistakes unbelievably costly.

Slayer is the only zero no ranged weapon class with 125 life. Both Grail Knight and Warrior Priest have 150. If someone picks him you already are losing Bardin tank so having a squishier character makes this even more painful. His lack of ranged already mean specials will be more challenging to deal with there is no need to make him squishy on top of this.

Handmaiden is supposed to be the bruiser/toughest class for Kerillian she should not have the same base life as SotT which is the support build. Kerillian is the only character with no career that has 150 life.

All three of these classes are easy to get yourself killed on since their abilities are easy to misposition with and on higher difficulties 25 life does not a tank make it would just buy a little more forgiveness for small errors on these classes. My other argument is that all three of these classes are not aligned with similar ones.

Can’t agree with any of this. They’re mobility tanks, they stay alive by being good at avoiding damage entirely.

It’s also entirely thematic that the Elf has no 150 hp career. Similarly giving a shirtless berserker the same hp pool as iron breaker makes zero sense.

To top this off those are all very strong classes overall, very far from deserving any kind of buff.

Just can’t agree on any level here.

sorry to say dude but you gotta get good

Why is it “entirely thematic” that the Elf has no 150 HP career, while the Wizard does? What suddenly makes someone who has been fighting for millennia, more fragile than a human wizard? Simply being an elf certainly doesn’t. If anything, elves in Warhammer Fantasy are generally portrayed as being at least slightly superior to humans physically, not weaker.

I’ve followed Warhammer Fantasy for well over a decade, and I’ve never seen Games Workshop establish that elves are inherently fragile just because they’re elves. In Total War: Warhammer, for example, the High Elves and Dark Elves field heavily armored elite infantry that are every bit as durable as the elite troops of other races, including Chaos Warriors themselves. One of those units even literally looks like one of Kerillian’s skins.

I understand the argument that Handmaiden is a “mobility tank,” and I think that’s a fair point. What I don’t understand is the claim that giving her lower HP is somehow “entirely thematic” because she’s an elf. That’s simply not how elves are depicted in Warhammer Fantasy. If anything, a Handmaiden specifically would be one of the careers for which a human knight-level health pool would be entirely thematic.

I can at least agree with OP regarding Handmaiden, even if I disagree with their other suggestions. Giving Handmaiden the same base HP as the other tank careers would not suddenly make her overpowered, especially since, as you’ve already pointed out, her strength doesn’t primarily come from her health pool.

It would, however, remove an odd inconsistency both from a lore perspective and from a balance perspective.

Alternatively, her HP talent could simply bring her up to the same total health as the other tank careers. Right now it still leaves her roughly 7 HP short. Why not make the numbers match exactly, at least at the cost of investing a talent point?

Broader generalizations about elves in Warhammer have less to do with Kerillian specifically. The fact that none of her careers hit 150hp goes hand in hand with the way each elf career suits her and the way her gear works.

Other 150hp careers have abilities and talents geared toward DR, stagger, and tanking, with weapons that tend to have lower dodge count and distance; or they’re risky tanks (Zealot/Unchained) that have other built-in weaknesses. The elf’s weapons, talents, and abilities offer more speed and dodge instead; paired with more stamina on Handmaiden. Throwing another 25hp on top of that is no more thematic or necessary than giving Bardin long slender legs to dodge like the elf and a mini-nuke launcher full of cinderblast charges. A dwarf could reasonably craft such a contraption, and some other tank career might be able to dodge better, but that doesn’t mean it makes sense to give it to Bardin.

“Why can’t my heckin flawless 1000+ year old immortal elf waifu do everything everyone else can?” Calling it now: this is just elven jealousy talking. Over the years I’ve watched elf players complain anytime there’s one thing the elf doesn’t do as well as everyone else. They’re already immortal, eternally youthful, magical, wise, hyper-competent self-insert Mary Sue nonsense. The tradeoff with Kerillian is lower health and less stagger, and that should be fine.

I meant thematic to their actual character identity, the things that are consistently associated with them across classes. EG high mobility, high finesse, high skill ceiling user of swift and evasive weaponry.

As @Ensrick has already pointed out, we don’t need classes to be more homogenous, And all of Keri’s classes are powerful already so really OP is just suggesting removing character quirks and flavour for no good reason as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t really think thematics has any credence in a HP discussion but I will go down this dark and terrible path. Bardin Ranger is 100 life he is wearing armor, Bardin berserker has 125 life he has no shirt.

The life totals to me reflect play position ranged classes 100 life (that said outcast engineer and SoTT are 125 and it feels like health creep for the new classes…), Melee DPS 125 life, Tanks and divers 150 life

If people think classes are balanced I’d still rather increase their life at the cost of DPS (frankly a pretty light decrease) for those classes although I don’t think Handmaiden DPS is anything amazing currently just to make the classes more balanced instead of ‘get gud scrub’ classes but I think Berserker and Shade DPS is already overrated because they do not add any buffs to the group which means as a pick they are lowering everyone else(s) numbers and in general I don’t like them on the team. Shade monster damage could easily be lowered some I’d take a mildly tougher shade who cannot completely melt monsters since many maps have 0-1 monsters and sometimes that monster gets pushed off a cliff I feel she ends up being a situational pick for some maps instead of a reasonable pick to round out a party on any map.

I feel like you maybe misunderstood my meaning by “thematic”? Though I do think flavour does also matter, I wasn’t trying to make a realism/lore argument.

It seems like those classes with higher mobility and damage avoidance ability get lower max HP to compensate, as well as to diversify different classes filling similar team roles.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if that is an intentional design choice.

Alas, you will need to find anyone that agrees with your priorities first before trying to negotiate. It seems so far that most do not in fact want hp values homogenised.

That still doesn’t address that a Wizard, arguably one of the least thematic candidates for a large health pool, has a 150 HP career, while the Elf doesn’t, presumably because “she’s an Elf” (c)

So far, nobody has provided a convincing explanation for why being an elf should suddenly make a person more fragile. The only response I’ve seen was Ensrick’s strange rant about some imaginary “elf players.” If you want someone to fight with, look, I’m not even an elf main, if that’s the argument we’re going with.

You tried to explain this by specifically singling out her lower HP as being thematic to her race, and Ensrick even tried to bring lore into it. If you bring the lore into it, the problem is that none of that actually lines up with Warhammer Fantasy lore. There is absolutely no correlation between being an elf and having unusually low durability or survivability in Warhammer Fantasy. None whatsoever. On the contrary, it is generally established that elves on average are at least slightly more durable and stronger - like it or not.

And that leaves us with a Wizard that still has larger health pool

Shade is also the only melee dps with on-demand invisibility. Among a few other unique qualities.
Overall, she is a very strong melee dps career, buffing her would be silly.
And no, she does not have low thp gen, just run execute.

Slayer has less hp than the other two melee-only careers. He also has much higher mobility and attack speed than they do.
Besides, he has extremely consistent 40% Damage Reduction + great killing power for execute thp gen. Not squishy by any means.

And yes, you lose bardin tank and special sniping - and? You gain a high very well-rounded DPS melee career.
If you pick GK, the team loses special sniping and shout ult, picking Zealot over WHC means no teamwide buffs, etc. Slayer is no different, it’s a standard trade-off and on almost all difficulty settings (and I mean that as beyond standard cata), it’s not a problem at all.

It’s obviously possible for a trade-off to be bad, but that’s just not the case here in standard settings.

Handmaiden could be slightly buffed. However, I’m not sure if changing hp values would really achieve anything.
One thing to keep in mind is that such a buff would lower the value of already not popular (from my experience on euro servers) Heart of Oak, since on cata this talent allows HM to survive an overhead. Not a big deal, but something to keep in mind.

And I wouldn’t want that to be the case at all.

Again, it’s a reasonable trade-off.
You can have all 4 teammates buff each other, or maybe you can have 3 teammates buff 1 high dps build - warrior priest’s ult bubble (especially 10s version) on a slayer or shade (dual daggers) can massacre a chaos warrior patrol alone, while a mercenary with a bubble, regardless of the weapon setup, can be impactful but won’t match either of them.

There are many ways to approach this game, from my experience in organised teams, it is very often the case that there is at least one career that doesn’t provide any buffs to the team besides simply being a damage-dealer of some variety.

Shade can simply be played with Sword and Dagger to be a pretty well-rounded DPS career. With daggers, she is still one of the best elite killers (depending on which elite-killing criteria we focus on), and any run which encounters a monster or a patrol (especially chaos pat) DD Shade is very good.

This is a side note, since I care way more about balance than strict lore accuracy.

While I can’t speak lore-wise, total war is a pretty poor example imo. Elf units do actually have less hp per entity in comparison to almost every race (in the same unit tiers), although they do tend to be pretty close to humans (elves still usually have slightly less hp).

Regarding tankiness of the Unchained, the devblog says:

Devblog

[…] Addiction is an insidious process, and magical addiction all the more so – a wizard can be lost in its grip for years before succumbing to their final, raving fate…

No one knows for certain when Sienna’s chains shattered – not even her. What is certain, is that she no longer cares to conceal the blazing need that burns inside her. Caution thrown aside, she embraces every possible scrap of power from the Wind of Fire. She lives from one dizzying magical high to the next, closing with her foes to better witness that sublime moment when flesh and bone succumb to the glorious flame she now serves.

As Unchained, Sienna’s focus now lays in magically enhanced melee combat. She can channel the winds of Aqshy to provide both an armour of flame that protects her and a mighty spell of fiery destruction, detonating around herself.

Which I’d interpret as UC Sienna having succumbed fully to the fire wind and going pretty much mad, making her careless to pain + using the fire wind to enhance her protection - which manifests in-game as having more hp and her Blood Magic passive.

The devlogs also describe Bounty Hunter as “heavy armor ranged tank” and, if I remember correctly, having high survivability, yet in the actual game he’s one of the squishiest careers available. Devlogs don’t always accurately reflect the final reality of the game. They’re flavor text and design intentions, not strict balance documents. By that logic, perhaps Bounty Hunter should also have 150 HP.

As for Handmaiden, a fragile tank is a contradiction in terms. Yes, she can block and dodge all day long, and doing so effectively requires skill. But she’s still poor at actually trading hits compared to the other tank careers. A bit more health would help reinforce her role as a tank rather than just an evasive frontliner.

Otherwise, don’t call her a tank. I’ve never really found convincing support for the concept of a “mobility tank” in this context. If your primary form of survivability is avoiding damage because you can’t afford to take it, then you’re not really tanking in the traditional sense of the word.

I think you’re treating “elf” too broadly here. Properties of the group don’t always map to the individual: Kerillian isn’t just defined by being an elf in the Warhammer universe. Compare her to Kruber, Bardin, Saltzpyre, and Sienna. None of them are like other ordinary mortals either. These characters aren’t representative of their races as a whole.

That’s the logical error I was pointing to without saying it outright: it’s a false inference. So when you say nobody has given a convincing reason why being an elf should make a person more fragile, you’re framing the question around the group when the character was never just a stand-in for the group in the first place.

It’s pretty simple, but you’re dodging around the issue like a Handmaiden. She’s a mobility tank because she’s got the dodge and stamina where other tanks have more health and DR. That is the identity. If you’re already good at avoiding hits, dumping extra health on top so that you in particular can call her a tank does nothing at all to help that identity along.

On balance, too, as I said earlier: all the elf’s weapons grant speed and mobility over stagger. That’s the throughline of her whole kit!

Mobility tank is totally a thing. This all boils down to semantics. Fragile Tank is a contradiction in terms, but nobody called her fragile and often Tanks are Tanks because they can avoid damage. Other tanks rely on Damage Reduction, Stagger and things like Gromil Armor to avoid damage. On the other hand, all of Kerillians weapons are designed around mobility and speed over stagger. This is how she works. Layering more health on top of that doesn’t help. Arguably, Handmaiden is the most easy to survive with of all the careers in the game, the dash+dodge+stamina regen makes it extremely easy for her to stay alive, even compared to Ironbreaker who is more likely to get caught by disablers if you take a shield because of the low dodge count/distance. This is just getting silly now if you can’t acknowledge the strengths she has don’t justify adding more on top.

As for the goalposts: I don’t necessarily expect people to change their minds even when presented with a good argument, and convincing people isn’t my sole intent. I’m not really interested in where people set the bar for what they personally find convincing. I’m posting to share my own thoughts for anyone who cares to look. Dismissing my last post as a rant just because I included a little tongue in cheek tells me the argument might not be what you’re focusing on. My main points never got addressed: Kerillian is designed for mobility that has to come at the expense of other forms of protection, layering on defenses to conform to your definition of a tank doesn’t help anyone, and Kerillian as an individual character isn’t representative of elves as a whole in Warhammer fantasy.

K. is 10.31x more durable than a normal human in VT2 terms. It’s just that the other characters are even more durable.

The Unchained is extra-durable because of magic.

The Slayer is more durable because he really, really, really doesn’t want to take a nap.

The Knights and Ironbreaker are extra durable because of all that armor.

The HandM and SotT are more durable because of stubbornness. (That’s right: The Waystalker and Shade are chill.) Same goes for WHC.

The Zealot is extra durable because of extra stubbornness.

The Warrior Priest is extra durable because he’s Sigmar’s Best Boy.

Any other lore questions?

I agree, they are meant as a lore-fluff text and some basic design intentions, not balance sheets.

However, if I understood your previous posts correctly, you questioned the lore accuracy of wizard having a tanky 150hp career, the fluff text of the devblog explains the lore-reasoning created by devs for this hp pool well imo.

Balance-wise, I don’t see any issues either. I think that the big hp pool of Unchained makes sense and is a good thing.

Having read all the devblogs for the original careers just now, BH’s is IMO the only one with such extremely glaring inconsistency between fluff-lore and balance.
There are some inaccuracies, like RV could be seen as a bit stronger melee than he really is, Slayer can now use ranged throwing axes, while Pyro doesn’t have to kill enemies one at a time, but in general, I feel as though none of them run COMPLETELY counter to actual in-game balance, EXCEPT for BH.

And so, regarding handmaiden, her fluff text which describes her playstyle (rather than why she chose the path of the handmaiden) is pretty short but it talks about her using ‘spear’s reach to deliver death to her foes before their own weapons bite flesh’ - ofc, HM is not limited to spear, but this to me implies, that she was created to avoid hits, not tank them - relying on agility, rather than heavy armour.
She doesn’t have some sort of ‘blessed craze’ in her fluff text like zealot (‘faith can carry body through most horrendous of wounds’) or aforementioned abandon of unchained, nor talk about heavy armour like Foot knight (‘trusting to heavy armour’) or IB.

Therefore, I FEEL LIKE there is no lore justification for 150 base hp, and there is clear design intention in my eyes for her to be all about avoiding damage rather than tanking it - for which she doesn’t need 150 base hp.

From my perspective, devs clearly don’t think of her as a traditional ‘tank’, but maybe I’m missing some other info from developers.

But ‘mobility tank’ seems like an accurate description, considering both the fluff text and balance decisions such as +15% dodge range, +100% stam regen, +1 stamina, or her unique weapon - spear and shield having one of the fastest movetechs in the entire game (+high movement speed in general when attacking), despite being a shield-type weapon.

Personally, I don’t really like the strict terms in vermintide such as these anyway, so I don’t care what she’s called.

As a final note, as I said previously, I’m ambivalent to HM having 150 base hp - I don’t think it would make any sort of a meaningful difference balance-wise. Honestly, I don’t even see how this would even make her really any better at trading hits.

Although I think HM could receive some small buffs.

I also have no interest in changing anyone’s mind or writing walls of text, especially ones as long as your last post.

The original point was very simple: someone claimed that being an elf somehow makes a character thematically more fragile. That is not a thing in Warhammer Fantasy. You can disagree all you want, but it simply isn’t true within the setting.

And the moment someone pushed back on that claim, your response wasn’t to defend it with lore. Instead, as I already pointed out, you personally launched into a rant about some mythical “elf mains” - which is particularly funny because I’m not even an elf main. It’s hard to ask others to carefully analyze your arguments when you opened with that.

As for the “mobility tank” argument, the more I look into it, the more it feels like a post-hoc justification. Whenever I try to find examples of this archetype in other games, I keep running into characters that still possess health pools comparable to traditional tanks. Oops. That’s a bit inconvenient, isn’t it? Almost as if your entire point was destroyed when you try looking into definition/examples of mobility tanks.

Maybe “mobility tank” simply isn’t the right term for what you’re trying to describe then?

What makes this whole discussion particularly weird is that everyone here understands what you (and the other person) actually mean. I understand it, you understand it, other people understand it. The race of the character is absolutely part of the justification being used. This is what you’ve opened with before backing out. People have decided in their heads that elves are supposed to be fragile and are then working backwards from that conclusion. Not bringing actual arguments but stretching facts to conveniently fit into their belief.

The problem is that this assumption doesn’t actually hold up in Warhammer Fantasy. If we were discussing a different setting where elves are explicitly portrayed that way, I wouldn’t even be arguing about it.

And honestly, I think this entire debate proves the point. If Handmaiden were mechanically identical but belonged to almost any other race, I seriously doubt there would be nearly as much resistance to the idea of giving the career 150 HP from you.

This is confusion bordering on delusion or willful ignorance so you can set up your strawman. Nobody is arguing that elves in warhammer must be weaker than humans.

“It’s thematic that the elf has no 150 HP career” wasn’t mine; that was @alsozara, who clarified twice that they meant thematic to her character identity (mobility, finesse, evasive weapons), explicitly not lore or realism. So the “elves are inherently fragile in Warhammer” claim you keep knocking down isn’t one they made.

Mine wasn’t a lore claim either. My first post was about her kit: the elf’s weapons, talents and abilities are built around speed and dodge over stagger and DR, and Handmaiden stacks stamina and dodge range on top of that. That’s a design tradeoff, not a statement about elf biology. The elf-mains bit was tone (dock me for it if you want) but it came after the actual argument, and the actual argument wasn’t lore.

This is the first thing I said:

And this is the part you got backwards: last post I argued the opposite of what you’re accusing me of. I said you can’t read Kerillian’s stats off “elves as a group,” because properties of the group don’t map onto the individual. That’s a rejection of “elves are fragile, so Handmaiden is fragile.” You’ve now erroneously pinned that exact inference on me. Saying “everyone knows what you actually mean” doesn’t fix it; you’re describing a motive you assigned me instead of the argument I wrote, and there’s no version of that I can respond to.

On “mobility tank”: sure, in your mind or other even in other games that label often comes with a big health bar attached. That’s pure semantics. Call her an evasive frontliner, whatever. That doesn’t change the reality, her suitability comes from dodge, stamina and movement instead of HP and stagger, which is exactly why 25 extra HP does nothing for her identity. @Pawelpl55 just posted the numbers that show it. The label was never the point.

To sum my 2nd post up (in some sense), imo there is no lore or design intention justification for her having 150 base hp that is seen in descriptions of every other 150 base hp career.

And the in-game balance developer’s intention clearly promotes an identity of a mobile character who is meant to avoid and block hits.
She has mobility stuff:

  • +base dodge range, dash ult

And semi-tank stuff:

  • +stam regen, extra stamina, potential 90% BCR

Her unique weapon even combines both of these qualities into a single tool, being one of the fastest movement weapons in the game, despite being a shield (better block angle, cheaper inner block cost, stronger push).

EDIT: Additionally, Spield also doesn’t have a shield bash for example - which would allow HM to take a lot of damage and shieldbash a few times into a horde to quickly regen hp back with second wind.
It really doesn’t have any special way of regenerating thp much faster than most other weapons, so it doesn’t really promote taking damage either - it promotes avoiding hits (movement speed) or blocking them (cheaper block) or pushing before the hit happens (higher push strength).

I don’t see developers intending for HM to be taking damage from any perspective.

That may be true - it’s also entirely irrelevant.

Great, HM is not a ‘mobility tank’.

Instead, HM’s label shall be ‘Character with high mobility and very good blocking meant for avoiding damage whilst shielding the team wherever she may be needed’ - as intended by the developers by in-game balance decisions and partially fluff text.

It’s also a very catchy label if you ask me.
And labels are very important! Not what they are supposed to message ofc.

She doesn’t have mechanics promoting taking hits or desiring more hp in some special way. She does have mechanics for avoiding damage - either through mobility or block.

Mechanics-wise, careers that benefit the most from taking damage are the ones with useful ults on long cooldowns to get their ult back faster.

Handmaiden’s 20s ult can be regenerated in combat in about 10-12s without taking any hits, allowing for easy looping of Power from Pain buff before it runs out.
She has no reason to take damage like:
IB, who may want to cut the very long cooldown of his ult, to, for example, provide the team with 20% power more often
or Mercenary, who can provide thp and DR to the team,
or FK, who can cause mass stagger allowing everyone else to deal damage easier.

And even then, some of the careers that WOULD WANT TO TAKE DAMAGE to get their ult faster, don’t have 150 base hp. And HM’s ult is not of a kind that one would really want to spam as much as possible.

I don’t see anything in the game actually promoting HM as a career that should have 150 base hp.

And as I said, I’m doubtful that such a change would even impact the pick-rate of HM or make her in any actual meaningful way stronger.

Even if we say thematic isn’t about visuals mobility has nothing to do with chosen life totals, Zealot and Footknight have 150 hp and their special is all about mobility, Waystalker, Ranger, Bounty Hunter, Pyro, no mobility moves, 100 hp. If there is a theme it’s about how the character plays and shade plays in melee and is the only melee with 100 life. Maybe you could make an argument that it is thematic for people with aggro drops to have 100 life there is some correlation there but positioning is still a stronger correlation.

The real reason I propose this is because these classes have more complex play styles and get tossed lower health to make mistakes more costly. Nobody died from a poorly timed Merc shout but a bad charge is deadly. On a shade dodging left instead of right can easily get you killed low health just seems to make mistakes on her more deadly not somehow cap her DPS. I do not think 25 health is going to make any of these classes way stronger picks (honestly I think Slayer is the one I’d be most worried about since his mechanics play to higher health). They would just allow 2-3 minor mistakes a game at higher difficulties.

I don’t think the ‘talent and ability’ picture supports adding health to Slayer and Elf careers, and your own examples are a good place to start, because mobility ults and talents aren’t the only variables that matters. The whole kit is.

Take Footknight. His ability is a charge, but that’s mostly stagger aimed at disabling enemies and reaching a teammate who needs rescuing. And across the board Kruber’s weapons are slower, higher-stagger, and lower-dodge than the elf’s. Same for the dwarf. So Footknight’s 150 HP isn’t “mobility ult plus high health”; it’s high stagger, a control-oriented ult, and a defensive weapon pool, with health/DR to match the trade-hits playstyle. He also has fewer talents aimed at dealing damage than Handmaiden, but I’ll grant you, they are about as similar as two careers can get, except Foot Knight is more stagger/DR, and Handmaiden is more damage/mobility.

Zealot’s not precisely a standard tank, he’s a risky tank. Either you keep your green HP and play a mediocre tank, or you go for THP and get both tankiness and damage, but you carry the risk of losing your THP if you can’t maintain it. His 150 isn’t free durability; it’s the resource the whole gamble runs on. This is similar in nature to Unchained which takes less damage and can deal a good deal of damage, but that comes with a great deal of risk since taking damage can overcharge her and kill her.

Slayer may only have 125 health, but look at what he already gets: extremely effective DR talents up to 40% on charged attacks or half damage taken from elites/monsters plus Leap which can stagger nearby enemies. His talents make him easier to keep alive, not harder. He already has the survival tools layered into his offensive capabilities. Getting a ton of attack speed on weapons capable of stagger and killing elites fast makes him able to easily maintain THP and control crowds if not just kill them outright.

Now the elf side, where I think your model is missing the biggest variable: the weapons. Every elf weapon has excellent dodge count and distance. That’s the throughline of her entire kit as I’ve said many times now. She trades stagger for speed and evasion, and her HP is balanced against that. On Handmaiden it’s compounded further by the dash, the extra stamina, and stamina regen. Adding health doesn’t reinforce a weakness; it stacks more survivability onto the most damage-avoidant kit in the game. Not only that, but her weapons have fairly high DPS.

You can see the same logic hold on the other ranged careers. Ranger Vet and Huntsman don’t get elf-tier dodge, but they get movement speed and/or DR talent options, they can carry a shield, and their weapons out-stagger the elf’s, so they’re ranged, with less mobility but with the crowd control to clear their own space. Pyromancer gets real mobility from her ‘crit to movement speed talent’, and her crit chance sits around 25–50% most of the time. Pyromancer also can get health from her ult and Sienna’s weapons offer moderate mobility and stagger.

On your “complex playstyle = more punishing mistakes” point, I’d argue that’s the intended play style of these careers. The fragility is what makes a wrong-direction dodge on Shade matter, but she’s also handed on-demand invisibility and some of the highest melee DPS in the game as the payoff. The elf’s high damage output is the reason it draws so many scoreboard circle chasers in. Shade and Waystalker are deliberate glass cannons (melee and ranged respectively). That “2–3 mistakes a game” of forgiveness isn’t for nothing, on kits this strong it meaningfully shifts the risk/reward the careers are built around.

On another note, when I first played Legend years ago, I was convinced most careers under 150hp (or that couldn’t generate massive THP fast) were just bad to play. I complained about it, and avoided squishy careers, that is, until I saw someone else surviving better as a Bounty Hunter than I did as Ironbreaker. That’s when I realized I was missing something. So I played Bounty Hunter a lot, and died a lot, but eventually I talked to other players, learned how to set up my properties and traits, got familiar with positioning and dodging, and I realized that it just takes time. There are 4 careers each on 5 characters, that’s 20 different ways to play the game and they each have different combos of talents, weapons, and properties. It’s complicated, and having mastered one doesn’t map well onto mastering another.

I think a lot of disagreements boil down to people having more or less experience with different characters. When something is genuinely weaker, on average, you’ll find that the people who put the most time and effort into the game will acknowledge it. Handmaiden is considered the most survivable career by many players I’ve talked to who have thousands of hours in the game, many more than me. This may seem like an appeal to authority, but it genuinely is how skill-based game communities sort these things out.

Mobility has nothing to do with life totals. There is no correlation I am about to make a graph.

DR has a stronger correlation in that people with DR tend to have higher life. Almost no one with DR at the 100 life tier.

Low life is not really about weakness of the character its about play availability, there is a reason people start play on Bardin IB, he is easier to play. Shade and Slayer are much harder to play and it isn’t because of the life differential. Bardin would still be an easier play then Shade if he had 25 less life. Her lower life to me is just to make her harder to play because even with 125 life (like other melee DPS) she would still be a more challenging play then Bardin IB and high skill players would not suddenly see a huge DPS boon (at least on Shade and Handmaiden). It might allow more aggressive play on Slayer but of the three he is probably the one I think shouldn’t get it.