And how long does it take to load and shoot 3-4 shots to stack the dots? In that time you could have been doing a lot more useful things imo instead of reloading and shooting your musket. Same for any shotty, sitting there reloading special ammo and firing isn’t exactly quick.
That’s a big reason I’ve always felt it was a trap, nothing worse than seeing a melee powerhouse become a civil war LARPer when they could be out there mixing it up in melee range and being way more useful, situation permitting ofc. Shotgun special shot spam is way overused, take your potshot and get out there and occupy stuff in melee!
Side note: If it’s a suicide run, for Emprah’s sake don’t run off to die!
If you’re in the grinder, turn off invisibility and invincibility and spawn mixed hordes of various densities to really get a feel for it. Try it with all shotties and special shots, then try regular shots for higher value targets, then repeat while ADSing. Add some bots and increase the density to HiSTG levels to get a better feel, though bots will tank for you and not range in there.
What’s that term the kids like to use? Opportunity cost? It’s too high, or low, whichever is worse.
I mean… I’ve consistently maintained that the point is to use each tool right: hip, ADS and special. You use the special when it’s time to use the special → When its far superior cleave & DoT nets you far more dmg for a fraction of the ammo compared to regular shots (or utility like stacking Scatter etc). Same vice versa.
Yes, sometimes it means weighing kill times vs. economy. And no-one is arguing against ADS normal shots usually being the best choice to drop those specials/elites in particular and fast for example. But this topic is specifically about “guns for clearing hordes”. Ammo economy is the single biggest obstacle for any gun to do just that. All shotgun specials address economy in particular, especially when used right and especially Kantrael with that DoT. Every single T5+ mission has plenty of fights with groups so big and/or so far away that 2-4 specials will easily top 10-20 regular shots worth of dmg, often in a fraction of the time (and CC the lot of them to boot).
If you’re seriously claiming any one of the shotgun specials is even close to useless, and especially for horde clear (and especially Kantrael), then I’m sorry but you have absolutely no idea how to use the shotguns.
I’m not saying shotguns are all useless, I’m saying in general they’re overvalued and overused, especially the Kant fire shotty on zealots.
All of them are in a bad place, and fire shot spam into hordes is typically the worse choice for a zealot in most any situation. By the time the fire shots add up odds are the rest of the team has dealt with stuff.
It’s similar to a Smyker in some ways, they think they’re being helpful but they’re really not.
Luckily not seen fire shot spam being used very much these days, I think the ammo economy and HP creep might have finally shelved it.
Yeah? And did you notice the fire shot cleave was nerfed? Why didn’t you notice? I doubt many users did and most parrot the same pre #13 lines too, that’s rather telling.
I get the topic is “horde clear” but almost always you’re better off taking a potshot or two and close to melee as a zealot, hell a BRautogun is better than the shotguns in pretty much every way. Again, turning a melee powerhouse into a cowering static slow firing turret is effectively removing a player from the game for large swaths of it.
I really, REALY want to like the shotties, they’re just sad and inefficient and quite frankly, usually a giant sticky noob trap in regard to the fire shots.
My philosophy dictates ranged weapons are best when utilised for killing Elite or Specialist enemies before they become a threat. I’d prefer to kill a Poxwalker in melee over a Crusher.
Reject horde-clearing ranged weapons and embrace horde-clearing melee weapons.
Fu*k that, i love mowing down hordes of enemies with showers of bullets.
Like it or not, but some weapons are made specifically for horde clearing, and they are god damn good at it.
Dont try to keep others away from it just because you dont like using them.
Chill, choom. I’m not actually trying to hold anyone back, just providing my take on the subject and my reasoning behind it. I simply prefer to clear and control hordes in melee while taking ranged weapons designed to keep Elites and Specialists at bay.
I’m a Vermintide veteran and my philosophy simply complements my playstyle the most. I’m not judging any of y’all who love to mag dump into Poxwalkers.q
And? Most of them are terribly inefficient at horde and there’s been some bad advice doled out, it basically boils down to flamer and maybe brauto at times.
In most situation clearing trash with ranged as a zealot halves or quarters your efficiency, that’s what CornDog was implying, if they weren’t then I am.
Good advice: don’t gimp yourself.
It’s all been discussed in this topic, read up, or don’t.
P.S.
To “gimp yourself” is English video game slang that means to greatly reduce your own effectiveness (usually by choice). Like if you choose to bring a grey weapon with bad stats into a mission when you have a much better version of that weapon available, one would say you are “gimping yourself”.
it’s by design that ranged weapons really are more for elites and specials, unless you’re using a flamer/purge staff. That’s the whole reason they removed some ammo pickups from the maps bc they don’t want 100% range uptime with no consequences.
Kantrael with man stopper and scattershot can do the job.
But still, I consider that using a ranged weapon, excepted flamer, on a horde is a total waste of ammo. And even if the gun can be somewhat efficient in this role.
I had my days where I was using shotgun on vet and zealot, Must say that, except on bulwark and nurgle beast, I was not using the special of the kantrael.
While you’re right, proper advice needs to consider the broader implications and big picture too.
If I ask for help to do something that is factually a bad idea, I want to know why it’s bad and what other (and better) alternatives I have to get to my desired outcome instead. Or at least how to mitigate and compromise to make it less bad, should I choose to go about it my way anyway. I’d also appreciate a heads up regarding any risks etc. I should be aware of for each.
In OP’s case it would be beyond irresponsible to not at least mention that ranged horde clear is NOT a good idea. I mean, the question itself implies they may not know the game that well so pointing it out is a given. This isn’t an insult mind you, being new or inexperienced or even just experimental for its own sake isn’t a fault or cause for blame. If anything being any of those things and actually asking for advice is admirable! It implies humility, self awareness and a genuine desire for dialogue and learning. (unlike some who just stick their head in the sand and ignore others and the reality around them…)
So suggesting melee instead, then listing the best ranged that don’t at least completely suck at it while being open about the risks & costs of each is just being thorough and helpful. Ofc you’re not wrong either, too many answers to forumites in general take the “skill issue” approach of adding absolutely nothing at all.
It’s very clear OP is new (not that there’s anything wrong with that), which is not only why folks here mentioned “try melee” but also why I object to not only shotguns being recommended, but special ammo reliant shotgunning in particular.
There’s something about the knife that attracts new players, and something about new player using shotguns as a way to be far less useful than a bot not just for the team, but for themselves.
And not to harp on it further, but with the Kant fire shotty specifically I see the blind repetition of old and usually outdated recommended tactics that only serve to keep green players green.
Yeah we can’t keep track of every last change and stealth nerf, and Emprah knows we all make mistakes save Him, but if something as “crucial” as infinite fire shot cleave goes unnoticed and still shoved down noob throats…it’s not great.
Don’t recommend noob traps to noobs is my mantra. Hel, I bet OP would be much better served with a Rashad or Antax Combat Axe or w/e, but I bet they keep hearing “Bro, knife so god bro, so OP bro”. It seems to be two extremes with the knife, great players do great with it, everyone else tends to do poorly.
Ofc you’re not wrong either, too many answers to forumites in general take the “skill issue” approach of adding absolutely nothing at all.