Nah you can dress it up and cope how you want, the numbers don’t lie about how much of a disaster this is for the player count and the number of people openly saying that it’s exactly what is wrong with the game.
Go ahead, be a contrarian about it, it’s not going to make the player count to back up. Fat Shark made sure of that.
Well i mentioned similar idea in some thread. Rare material that players recieve only for extra hard objecitves/missions. It could justify locks and reward players for doing challenges. But did you see they mentioned that locks are part of some unfinished system, any plans in blog post? So it’s just a copium. If, if, if. Who cares about if, when devs didn’t say anything but “one blessing will be locked too”. I’m giving my feedback considering the current state of the game and not my wet dreams. And my original post is all about one remark - it could happen that one day some players will check patchnotes and realise their locked blessings not good or fun anymore. Well ok screw that balance changes, what if there will be new blessings? How are you supposed to roll some interesting new combination and try it? You allowed to reroll only one. Are you gonna say builds and rpg elements not a part of this game because it’s just a PvE horde shooter? But somehow we need an endgame contet like i’ts some kind of MMORPG?
Today, I has wanted to try a new setup for my vet (it seems better btw).
So, before I had 1 wound and 2 HP curios with different resists.
What I wanted is corruption resist and toughness regen.
I actually have two toughness +15% with corruption resist +12%. One is finished it has +30% toughness regen and +4% toughness. The second has just gunner resist +15% and now I need to consecrate it one more time and put toughness regen +30%.
After that, I need two curios, one with toughness bonus and the other with one wound with same thing. Actually it is easier cause shop can give us blue item with one perk we need. That’s why I work on that.
What I mean is… you’re wrong about your maths. I assure you this day has not lasted 500 hours and I did 2/3 of the work. Off course you can say I was lucky, and that’s true.
However, if you never try, guess what… you will never succeed.
If they really want to keep this game as a live-service game then such changes and new blessings are needed.
I can only play the “look at other games” card again. There are dozens of live-service games especially lootshooter and MMORPG´s changing with each major-patch. Old stuff SHOULD become irrelevant at some day, if you really want some sort of endgame and big content patches that keep things fresh.
Of course any upgrade system for existing stuff would be welcome, but being like “here your red-item, roll whatever you want” means that a game doesn´t evolve. It´s actually one of Vermintides biggest issues besides contentlacks. Even when new content appears, it´s just a new map you immediately jump in with all the stuff you run for years already and it´ll become boring and stale pretty fast.
Yes gameplay is still great, but the game never evolved. Only CW brought some variety with its roguelike mode.
Because it lasts in it.
Casuals are already catered with an armory offering loot without playing and which is not effected by the difficulty you play on. All what it needs is weapon-crafting for bad luck.
Everything beyond is min / max.
I mean yes… it´s cool to have that extra crit for your crit-bleed-build or something, and as i´ve said before the blocking perk on a forcesword is a gamechanger, but the rest?
It´s just about numbers, hitting breakpoints… It doesn´t suddenly change your build drastically or how you execute it. Even the crit just let you stack bleeding / soulblaze more often, but doesn´t offer anything on top.
You can tell it “the freedom of buildvariety” if you want, but it´ll always last in “searching for max-power and godrolls” at some point.
a) Twitch is for variety and so are modded realms. It´s nothing to talk about, when we actually speak about vanilla anyway.
b) Just look at V2 and its build variety, it´s a joke. While rangemeta was too strong and then became pretty useless, we´ve dozens of classes where level 5 and 15 traits are all pretty much the same. The most ultimates are boiled down to cdr or more damage as a lot of other traits are.
Now the important stuff, the gear… you´ve a handful of traits you roll together again and again until you finally have the combination you want. Buttonspam, nothing else, nothing special once you own reds. But the biggest issue is, that there is no variety.
V2 is one of the worst examples for build-variety while talking about PvE games. What matters is which weapon you´ve in your hand and that´s all variety you can have. All those stats either assist those weapons or help to reach breakpoints.
Yes some might have a little synergy, but the build-variety is highly limited and the options pretty much predefined. There is no real depth or something that have a drastically impact on the gameplay.
Again, just check out Outriders for example. Away from all its issues, it offers dozens of mods to play around, mods that actually effect your skills with more than just numbers and dozens of possibilities to build around your class.
Or a game like Diablo changes elements and the range of your skills, summons minions on top etc…
The tide-series offers nothing like that. We´ve “more crit for more bleeding”, or “more damage to oneshot”, heck poeple do even moan about maintaining stacks or while an Ogryn is an Ogryn (which is atleast variety across the classes).
Dunno how many builds you´ve found in your nearly 4000h, but changing one or two traits because you picked a slower weapon or one with less armor-pierce, isn´t a gamechanger to me.
Darktide already offers more build-variety because we´ve way more stats and perks, but even without the RNG it´s pretty much pointless. And if you look back at V2 or yet at DT, you´ll find those complaints that it´s mostly just about stats within any traits instead of something that effects the way to play like e.g. the ultimate-perks for Psyker do.
The series lacks hard on a real endgame and build-variety.
It is a problem.
A huge portion of us have full-time jobs. You can’t expect us to work at home as well.
The numbers dropped for different reasons. (That’s why your argument isn’t pointing to some magical dip that happened immediately following Jan 31 when this was patched. You aren’t pointing to reality to make your argument, you’re just emotionally reacting to unfinished crafting, and making a really bad argument that ignores reality.)
It’s a lot like Gary. Gary argues that leprechauns caused the universe. Well you look around: gosh, the universe does exist! I guess that proves leprechauns must’ve done it, right? Well no, it turns out we’d need evidence of that being the specific cause (evidence we don’t have). Just like you don’t have evidence the Jan 31 fix to this exploit caused a dip in players.
Huh?
Everything beyond a weapon’s base stats is min/max? That kills build diversity, and additionally makes no sense.
And then you say that having build diversity is the coolest part, but go on to say that there isn’t enough build diversity currently, resulting from the currently available bad blessing options… How does fixing the crafting system not enhance the experience currently, while foundationally propelling us forward with resulting blessings balance changes?
So every system results in max-power and godrolls at some point…ok? Again, how is this relevant or substantive to the matter at hand? It’s like we want a family car with circular wheels, not SQUARE wheels, and you’re saying that making the wheels circular would just cause us to want minmaxed racecar wheels right after…
I quite literally could not disagree with you more, and this just shows how very surface level your knowledge is about VT2, what build variety even means, proper feature set comparisons with games modeled like it in the industry (take your pick: L4D, B4B, DRG, Destiny, Outriders, Warframe), what retains a specific title’s majority playerbase (comparative advantage), and how casual/hardcore communities work by genre.
Do I really need to link you entire Steam pages, communities, and other Websites dedicated to the build/weapon diversity for VT2? The build guides and diversity span content from vanilla/twitch/modded/tourney balance/etc.
https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes
I’m sorry but you are qualitatively and quantitively taking the p1ss if you’re going to tell me that VT2 is the worst example of build diversity, and that Darktide already offers more build variety. VT2 endgame and build-variety was the only thing keeping its community alive all these years 
I’m glad you laser focused on “well actually toughness regen” and not you know the whole crafting, itemizing, and RNG system as a whole but you know what I’m over this argument because no matter what anyone says you will dig your heels in and vehemently defend any system fat shark puts in place.
If they got rid of the rng tomorrow you likely would not give a dam and would flip back to going “well actually this is a great decision” so again, sone arguing about this.
For the record no I did not rush out and put toughnesses regen on all 4 characters but the idea of even having to work on that many characters with this crap rng crafting system sickens me.
I’m glad you are having such a great time with the systems and you are ready to jump on anyone who isn’t but believe it or not a lot of people absolutely despise it for a variety of stated reasons and every reason I’ve seen so far for people liking it comes down to “well it makes it harder on others and that makes ME feel good because I got lucky” so congrats I guess.
for the record if they got rid of all the RNG tomorrow i’d probably go “huh, that was their primary itemization and progression loop, i really hope they implemented a system to manage that isn’t too much of an awful grind.” if they did what some players seem to be asking for and gated progression behind a ton of grinding i dunno if i’d keep playing?
like for me the system matters because it produces good or not good outcomes i don’t care at all about how it gets there. currently the grind is much too high. you could trivially demonstrate how to fix it without touching a single other RNG feature - crank the droprates of everything (milk, the stores, crafting mats, everything) 10x and the problem would disappear.
(you would have a fresh host of new and interesting problems, but you would solve the problem of the grind more or less)
That’s the thing compared to other Coop Shooters this grind is f’ing atrocious. I’ve literally played Payday 2 for less hours and not just gotten to max level but rolled it over twice and made several builds that are fun to play.
This has been the same case with both DRG and VT2. Not Darktide though.
That’s the thing. I don’t mind working towards something, I don’t mind a bit of grind but this isn’t grind this is one step forward 2 steps back and down an elevator shaft.
The system is entirely based off some weird concept that having 20 junk weapons in your inventory because the RNG fairy didn’t bless you is fun which in reality sucks both due to the time and resources wasted.
That’s the key problem, crafting feels like a big waste of time because there is no guarantee that the next weapon you find isn’t just a straight upgrade which then gets ruined because “he he blessings and perks go lock”
Like can we stop pretending here that other games haven’t figured this out already and not act like the systems they have in place don’t work or something while pretending what Darktide is doing is new and exciting and not just recycled MMO bs?
Sad thing is, they already came up with the solution in VT2. The Weave Cauldron crafting system.
You play the game, you earn essence. You use essence to level any character you want, any items you want, and you can freely swap all perks and blessings at any time so long as you’ve done the essence down payment. If they just implemented this solution, from their own game, from like August 2019…it would solve 80% of the issue.
Then, you would just have to come up with better/cooler blessings.
Lastly, you would need to appease the lore community, which could easily be done with a stylistic GUI/verbiage that simulates you putting an item requisition with your Inquisition/Hadron, whereby a mercenary is paid to go retrieve that item-combo for you. Pay them in Diamantine and Plasteel if you wanna keep the annoying pick up systems still - who cares. Grandfather the current players into the system via how much Diamantine/Plasteel they’ve already paid in (this is tracked and backed up in their DB and tapes/replication), and now old and new players are happy.
The most annoying part of all of this is that the devs have already claimed that they’re going to adjust max modifier rolls at some point in the future anyway. Basically they have planned power up phases where the community’s gear gets power crept all at once and we’re supposed to toss our gear climb back in the hamster wheel and keep grinding. For some reason they can’t have any non RNG factors for this planned obsolescence. The modifiers cap at 500 and we have only 380 max at the moment, rofl. They were probably planning on doing this several times.
Edit: they were also talking about tiers above 4, if you really want to rip your hair out. Imagine making a bank of blessings and then them adding T5/T6 to the game, time to start over! Don’t forget curios!
Well, I think the final question is are these totally real leprechauns also heretics ?
Honestly I am not really looking at perfect weapons/rolls/perks. I am happy with sub optimal gear, and it is enough to clear damnation even with random groups (although it makes a difference in a couple of breakpoints).
However… my experience so far is the following : After 375 hours across all classes, using the armory app for about half of that when I am in game to save time and sanity, 350-380 base stats weapons are not available that often. Sometimes I have 1-3 of each per class, sometimes I have none (not even getting into stats repartition).
I want to try fun, strong and/or goofy blessings. Why would I not want to try brutal momentum which turns any Antax into a landmower. Or charged reload on a twin stubber, that lets me fire with largely extended mag while regenerating toughness with Inspiring Barrage. Or combine Deflector + Exorcist on a Force Sword. Or try an anti Ogryn Hellbore with Falter + Onslaught.
Currently, I dont feel drop rates are quite enough to let me toy with these, especially with locks. If these need nerfs down the line I am up for it, but it also means I might have to continue playing around on a brand new weapon of the same type. Even without rebalancing, if I get bored or I dont like the combo, same issue.
FS has mentioned increasing/scaling the drop rates for Melk, the armory shop and emperor’s gifts, so I cant really know before I see the results in the next patch. If they are much better, or if the weapons bought from armory are consistently good, then we will at least have more weapons to fool around.
it all comes back to the odds and won’t be able to be meaningfully evaluated until we understand how much (if at all) it improves effective drop rate. i predict it will be a lot, any time an item spawns in the store right now you have to beat eg a 1/18 roll for zealot to get a specific weapon before you even get to the stats. most of the stuff which clears that is going to be dreck.
e: this is also why “let the player reroll the store for resource” would have been a semi-workable solution but imo this one is probably more permissive/player friendly, again, if the odds aren’t too bad. if the system say outcomes a 380ish item every 10k ordo dockets it will be great, 100k pretty good. if it does so every million ordo dockets it will be terrible.
Well put, exactly this ^ I’m of the same mindset and experience at 380 hrs on the dot. We can’t even enjoy what variety currently is “possible” in the game right now, and for the few that get those combinations, they are flamed for being too OP and need nerfing. Just do both. In this order - make itemization more accessible, then buff what needs buffing, then nerf what needs nerfing. Then create new blessings, careers, and weapons over time.
Rocker. Buddy. That’s the thread! That’s what we’re here talking about!
If people dig their heels in, on a topic where they aren’t dead-wrong, do you think I’d correct them?
No. Because they aren’t wrong!
Instead, you’ve dug your heels in fighting me on a topic where you’re dead-wrong if you disagree with me, because the thread is about specific exploit-like balance changes. People complaining about that is silly on its own, but it’s even more ridiculous that toughness regen didn’t even get nerfed into oblivion. So yes, of course on that topic that the thread is about and that I’ve been talking about, I’m going to dig my heels in because I’m not wrong about it. (You are.)
If you have to change topics and invent someone’s position (a straw man) to argue that they’re wrong, maybe the person you’re arguing against (the non-imaginary version of them I mean) isn’t actually wrong.
Why do you think “You don’t need good items” is a good argument for why it should be nearly impossible to get them?
It’s also just short sighted to try and set up a system that keeps people playing for gear they don’t really need and then make the chance of them getting the gear they want so bad that they simply give up.
So in other words this is the depth thread all over again where you are going to go 100 posts deep because you think your position that “random rolls = engagement” and players shouldn’t be pissed about wasting their time on a system that goes nowhere is wrong.
Ok
Yeah I think it’s much more reasonable to just want to try things more freely.
I think the new system is going to enable that to be vastly easier, since currently the “inputs” to the system are what limits you: if I’m looking for a Sharpshooter shovel, I simply have to keep watching that app each time it cycles and hope one 350+ shows up, but with the new system I’d have immediately rolled 20+ of them and been working several up to higher rarities to find ones with good blessings.
It’s not reasonable to be like, ‘but I dedicated resources to an exploit and got burned by it’ because in a lot of games that’s gonna happen.
Well in that particular case the serious answer is: because out of all the blessings Slaughterer, Headtaker, and Brutal Momentum seem most likely to be made balanced at some point! So committing a lot of resources to those seems “riskiest”.
“Riskiest” is in quotes because if it’s like toughness regen you won’t actually end up with a terrible item when it’s balanced. You’d instead end up with a Combat Axe where Brutal Momentum brought the cleave from 1.5 targets to 2.5-4 targets (so a very dramatic increase to cleave, but not out of control overpowered).