Another reason locked perks and blessings is a huge problem

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
21

See I can live with Overclocks being randomized because I can say with a straight face that you don’t actually need Overclocks to get the most out of a weapon because you have so much control over how your base weapon works.

It’s well designed because during leveling you are given time and enough resources to try things out, figure out how the game works, make mistakes, play with stuff, and THEN you get access to the real end game once you get to promotions with deep dives and Overclocks.

I had time to figure out how scout, driller, gunner, and engi worked and then got to see the big and small differences Overclocks made. Meanwhile with Darktide I barely got to touch half the weapons or test them out because of the credits economy early on being hot ass, things being level locked, and weapons feeling nowhere close to their higher level counterparts. Like yeah believe it or not guns lacking 60% of the stability on a gun or melee having 20% of the swing speed makes your weapons feel bad, who knew?

On top of that my time isn’t being wasted because it’s not like I need to say entirely grind another dwarf from scratch with none of my minerals or credits from scratch for every time I wanted to play around with a new character. Im not being actively punished with FOMO mechanics for branching out.

This is the same deal with Payday 2. Admittedly it launched in a very bad state and needed several big patches to get good but once you actually play the game enough and get to max levels you aren’t locked to rng rolls just to get a weapon that doesn’t feel bad and they actually have a end game with Crime Sprees that’s both rewarding and a challenge. Like that is a game that people put thousands of hours into and has some big meta builds but every time they push a new update with a new gun people build some crazy stuff and sink hours in despite having all the builds solved because the gameplay loop is fun.

That’s the thing, the Darktide gameplay loop is good enough that I can launch it, play with friends, and have a good time playing it but consistently during every play session with multiple friend groups the complaints are “wow rng screwed me again” and “I wish everything around the core gameplay was better”. It’s not like Darktide is slick by trying to hide content behind RNG, people recognize that, people understand it and they DO NOT LIKE IT because it is actively making itself unwelcome by putting itself in the way of a fun game.

5 Likes
22

Yes i´ve played it long enough and if you mean the changes coming with WoM-patch… they were needed. Legend was a clear no-brainer with a bit of dodge-spam before.

And no, i´m not short-sighted. It´s just that you don´t like the current design and obviously want red items back. Stuff that is not even needed to clear damnation. Also as been said, there are dozens way more popular games out there working similar or even worse. But why are they still so popular? Because a bunch of players just enjoy the gameplay or just straight up like the ups and down luck / bad luck cause.

Also i already made a suggestion for something similar to raids / deep dive where one reward could be a token to unlock locked traits / perks forever or a handful of rolls etc…
This would be a hundred times more of an endgame than losing all progress immediately once you get your godrolled red items.

It´s just you who can´t believe that there are poeple who don´t care.

You can play this game as its supposed to be played and enjoy it dozens of hours. There is no need to do penances immediately, there is no need to greed for weeklies or even better loot. In summary… there is absolute no need to hurry.

You want that loot, you want that godrolls etc… but you fail to see that this isn´t a lootshooter and that you can clear every difficulty even with some blue weapons. All what matters is the damage-bar on a weapon, the rest is just the cherry on a cake.

This game is about some kind of challenge and nothing else but fun. And i promise you, if you finally stop doing simple math or forcing yourself every hour to login or check out an app for gear, then you´ll suddenly have a bunch of fun in this game.

You guys just want a game that this game isn´t. The whole tide-series is nothing but “core-gameplay”, the rest is nothing but shallow side-content the games don´t even need.
Just do the other ingame-math like “+1% damage for a breakpoint on an Ogryn”. Do you really believe its worth to grind even 20 hours for your godroll just to achieve it? I don´t think so. It´s wasted time just to increase your odds for the next win.
There is actually only a handful of blessings that have an impact on the character-based gameplay. The rest are nothing but some easy numbers.

If you and others really want to min/max with dozens of loot, then you should play something like Outriders. Dozens of traits with different effects, which change the gameplay and offer more than just simple math a junior could do.

We definately need the crafting weapons tab so everyone can play the weapon they want. But everything beyond is clearly a “you-issue” to hunt for some percentages than actually enjoying what makes this series so great and outstanding compared to other PvE games.

23

Why was it a “problem”?

The first video you saw where someone’s toughness regenerated 6-20 times faster when they were running +45% toughness curios (1.45 times faster) should’ve been the first moment you knew it was going to be nerfed. So even before you took a single step towards using it yourself, you knew your legs would be swept if you went in that direction.

Then on top of that, after it was fixed, it was still a reasonably solid choice. So it’s not like if you heavily invested into it you should’ve walked away disappointed like those curios are now useless…because they’re not useless.

Additionally why can’t you replace curios exactly? I have a bunch of “reasonably acceptable” ~16% toughness curios “on deck” that if I ever got enough Plasteel I could increase in rarity and start working them to different builds, because I know the inputs side of the current system is slow and RNG based so I should always grab anything that I suspect I’ll ever be interested in in the future. Additionally even that requirement won’t exist in the future (because you’ll just buy 10-20 new curios in the new shop proposal and you’ll probably be able to consistently roll a 17%+ toughness curio that way…or a 21% HP if it turns out toughness gets nerfed (and yes, I always have a few HP curios on hand too)).

If your attitude is “balanced things are absolute trash” then you will ALWAYS be disappointed, no matter what happens.

If your attitude is “balanced things are balanced” then you’ll always want to keep a weapon with a balanced, synergizing set of blessings around because that weapon will always be good.

1 Like
24

That’s great dude, multiply replacing 3 curios on 4 characters and see how the math works out.

Like in theory if you put 500 hours into one character and dedicate all your time grinding that character then the system on the surface isn’t bad but the moment other characters come into the conversation it all falls apart.

So I’m expected to split my time resources between:

-upgrading and reblessing current weapons

-finding and fixing / upgrading 3 curios likely all the way from green

-finding new weapons to upgrade because of their base stat line

-upgrading all these gray weapons to try and find the blessings I want

-doing this across 4 different characters without a shared resource pool or itemization for some reason

Fun wow, I’m very glad we are locked into rng hell because fat shark is afraid someone might make a meta build and get bored playing it.

6 Likes
25

give me winds of magic athanor for darktide or give me death fatshark

26

Crafting should give us full freedom of weapon config in terms of perks and blessings, maybe even an option to improve the weapon basic stats. All with sensible crafting costs, most likely far higher than the present, with increasing costs for weapons of higher rarity etc.

For now I buy underpowered weapons with good basic stats. I buy weapons with underpowered blessing combos. I keep them. This is your work around atm.

1 Like
27

Why do you feel that’s even relevant to the conversation?

  • When toughness regen was overpowered, you could clearly see it was overpowered.
  • You seem to think 3 curios on 4 characters is a lot of work.
  • That means in your hypothetical you deliberately put in a ridiculous amount of work gearing all four characters with things you knew wouldn’t remain overpowered forever.
  • Then the perk was balanced.
  • So all 4 characters still had balanced, viable curios.
  • So any choice to completely regear those characters (something you consider “a lot of work”) was entirely voluntary on your part. You weren’t forced into it. You chose to do it.

Maybe instead of being so angry you should take a breath and think about what you’re saying before you say it.

28

If people don’t care, then they wouldn’t be on the forums here looking for criticism to mention that others don’t care. These suggestions would in no way penalize them anyways…so what rhetorical point are you trying to drive home here? As someone who enjoys and supports the Tide games/devs, I care about their success, and am willing to put time into constructive criticism.

Your analogies and metaphors don’t work for two simple reasons. Time, and expectation management. The normal distribution of free time that normal people have, combined with the expectations and promises from the mouths of the devs in the past, (and previous titles and market comparisons) are in direct contradiction to what you’re saying. We have not grossly misinterpreted any of the marketing promises from Fatshark, the reviews support that, Fatshark’s response and mea culpa supports that, and lastly this is my personal opinion (which happens to align with the aforementioned.)

Math is a tool that allows me to not be taken advantage of. It’s the same reason you wouldn’t loan someone $100 now for a $105 repayment in 20 years. You know the present value of the $100 is greater. You can clearly see you’re being misled. Well, in this case, Fatshark is selling a product that claims to have a crafting system which contributes largely to their content and product features. However, people who can do basic math can see that the crafting/shop refresh system is impossibly deceptive. If you want to experience what the game has to offer (which you have paid for upfront) then you are objectively prevented from doing so in even the most liberal consumer protection aspects. At best, it ruins the experience for newcomers. At worst, it’s fraudulent.

If you think the majority of people and the devs included are all misaligned from your view of what the game should be, that’s fine. To each their own, and I stand by that. But to say that your vision good, our vision bad, i have to go play other games, you get to play the game i funded…yeah I’m sorry but that’s just bad faith argumentation.

29

I’m very glad we are entirely missing the point that the system is a huge time and resource sink with no real payoff because “well you should have mind reading capabilities to know that something is op and not intended even though other op combos are allowed to exist”.

Like dude, listen to yourself.

The thing is that people only have so many hours in the day and believe it or not they don’t want to spend all their time working on something they are just going to throw out without even the decency to have a god dam salvage button.

And yeah I can re-roll perks but I really don’t want to sit there for 10-20 minutes clicking re-roll, because the entire system is luck based and has zero respect for my time.

I have no guarantee that any roll is going to be good and I’ve already wasted a ton of resources rolling even blue curios because the first stat is trash and there is no point into continuing.

I’ve taken a breath, played other games, analyzed it, played VT 2 for a bit and guess what? System still sucks.

30

It´s about the RNG-math you and others did , meanwhile there are dozens of other things to take care for like overall balancing, bugs, etc…
Poeple have to be some kind of special if they don´t get the numbers by themselves tbh… but it´s just how you act around them.

You can either sit here, writing poems and probably moan about every emperors gift or another useless armory-rotation, maybe even about a locked perk that prevents you from the perfect weapon you ever wanted… or you just play and enjoy the game as it is.
As been said multiple times, nothing of it really matters to “finish” the game and to complete even the highest difficulties.

And while it´s about…

No, your vision isn´t bad, it just lacks of something better than just moaning or begging for godrolls once again. Fast godrolls are as worse as heavy RNG is. It´s just the other half of players leaving because they´re bored. If anything, we need a middleway. And if this middleway is just one perk locked, which you might be able to unlock with a rare-item, then it´s atleast something.

And do whatever you want. I really don´t care if you stick with this game or not. It´s just that there are really great games out there for min / max players who wants to try different builds. The whole tide-series doesn´t include one of those games, because they´re shallow, the math is easy done and the only stuff that have an impact “how to play” is static coded on each weapon or class. The only blessing with such an impact coming to my mind is the range-block on the forcesword, that´s it.

Also… if a crafting system is good / bad is highly subjectively. There are dozens of proofs out there where poeple enjoy RNG, play around locks and grind those 100 hours more for that little percentages.
Darktide has a solid base to build on, but that shouldn´t mean that everything is unlocked and can be changed as you want. We already had this in V2 and it lasted in the same claims as here “no endgame”. And that´s true, because it´s rinse and repeat and even if you´ve no issues running the same maps all day long, then you´d no reason to progress further once you got your reditems.

EDIT: If i would be such a min / max player… i wouldn´t stay here hoping for better days. I would go play games that suits me, as the tide-series suits me right now, because i like some more challenging and skill-based gameplay instead of just stats.

31

Look I get we are still in the whole “well a crafting system is subjective” phase but the steam reviews are sitting at 27% with most of the reviews saying the same thing being “The core gameplay is great but lack of updates, the rng crafting system, and the bugs kill the fun”.

A lot of the reviews directly cite the FOMO nature of the current store and the RNG crafting system.

Take it as a sign that when the dude who put over 3k hours into warframe of all things says “this game does not respect my time” you have a problem that is far more than subjective.

3 Likes
32

Pfff, i like how you missed that part when toughness RS was completly useless trash first. As is said above, all my cruios on ogryn was locked without TRS perk roll because it was worthless. And when they buffed it guess what? I spend enormous amount of time just to grind curios i want to test, because of +6% more expirience, +10% more dockets useless crap perks in pool. Lucky i am that rest of my characters was packed with different curios.

1 Like
33

If you are referring to the recent nerf, it was a bug fix not a nerf. The recent change to the Toughness regen off of curios was due to a bug causing Regen of toughness to renenerate quicker than was was stated on said curio’s. (By about twice the amount.) All they did was balance it to regen at the speed in which was posted on the curios. I was a fix to a bug, nothing more. Now per the conversation, I don’t mind the system as is. It is nice to strive for god rolls, but I actually like having to deal with a possible weakness in a Curio or Weapon. If my whole build was god rolls, I would lose interest in the game as there would be nothing else to really strive for.

34

Why are you keep repeating this mantra? Did someone said it is impossible? Did someone said they can’t beat high intensity t5 without godrolls? Let me say again then:
I’ve got 1,5k hours in V2, and after i was tired from different challenges and plenty of hours with “just play for fun” reason behind, collecting all red weapon was my selfmade achievement. So yet again, i don’t want that scenario when Fatshark make some balance change and my armory collection of perfect tools for killing heretics got ruined because of locks.

1 Like
35

IE god rolls I don’t really care about god rolls I just want a system that respects my time. This currently does not.

I don’t care if something isn’t perfect, I can deal with sub standard gear but it’s the fact that we have:

-no shared resources
-no salvage button
-no auto-reroll to X perk without an outside tool
-locked perks that make it impossible to fix anything previously changed

We are getting an update at I guess the end of February if we are lucky and it doesn’t get delayed / broken and I guess then we have rolling 20 grays at a time to get something ok as long as the perks / blessing’s don’t get screwed up too badly.

There is a difference between working towards something and aimlessly wandering in a desert hoping to find a patch of water, this system most resembles the latter.

36

Imagine thinking that locking is a good endgame, what kind of kek is that? I get it, you will enjoy any system and will whiteknighting till the end. Dude wake up, it is 2k players online in DT and 4k in V2. I bet you were one of it’s-just-a-beta-relax people.

5 Likes
37

If you would read carefully then you would´ve seen that locks with the option to open them through rare mats or something would be a good middleway.
Immediately finished RNG godrolls from emperor chests are not better and make crafting irrelevant aswell.

Also there are dozens of reasons why poeple drop DT as V2 got dropped hard 2 times already. As we see the 2nd lifecycle lasted a week.
This is not comparable.

38

You keep saying extremist things like min-max’ing and godrolls. The crux of the issue is that most people cannot reasonably attain the weapons/perks/blessings/talent combos that they want for build variety and flavor, which would fulfil the promised and currently lacking content depth of the game. This tackles grind for casuals, boredom of vets who can’t try anything new even though they want to, and is the middle-ground. This is even worse than VT2 which had a vertically complete system on release (barring red rates & dust conversion) in addition to partial progress/equipment sharing.

Fixing the current crafting system allows people to better enjoy the game with their limited free time, accelerates bug fixes, accelerates balancing, helps casual players, helps min-maxers, fulfills the content void for their GaaS model until they make more careers/weapons, makes good on their product’s/marketing promises, and directly addresses the biggest current complaint of the playerbase. The independent variable that is affecting player retention the most is almost linearly this.

I mean…you’re just plain wrong about Tide games not being about build variety and augmenting builds with equipment. VT1, VT2, and Darktide follow the same archetype, like what… they continually make balance changes around the combinations, not just Talent trees. You think I’d play VT2 vanilla/modded/tournies/twitch/weaves for 3783 hours if I only enjoyed gear grinding? Gear is merely a tool, but also the primary vector in which you pilot your build/experience…

Beyond your incorrect assumptions about me, forgetting that I already responded to some of these points, and conflating symptomatic issues that are resulting from this poor crafting system foundation…

You repeatedly “complain about complainers,” which is such a degenerative and toxic mindset. Saying that we should just be happy with a product that doesn’t function nearly how we were told/believed it would makes no sense. You do remember we paid money upfront based on product expectations? I’m here because I still believe the product can be saved and I want to help it be saved. What’s your motivation? Would you like us all to emigrate to your current favorite game? Or is your position that you just don’t think the crafting system should be #1 priority? If that’s the case, then no worries, GG, we just disagree foundationally.

4 Likes
39

So are you unwilling to be reasonable?

  • No mind reading was required. You saw that the listed value of toughness regen was like “45%” max. You then also knew that when you equipped those curios you regenerated like 500-2000% faster. It doesn’t take mind reading to know something wasn’t right.
  • 6 days passed between the bug and the fix. Meaning you’re implying that in 6 mere days you were able to kit out four separate characters with lots of toughness regen (which itself implies you were often getting it by rerolling, which means it wasn’t locked!). So clearly not a lot of time was lost if you were able to fully kit out all four characters with this stuff.

You have a choice:
A. Keep being angry about this sort of thing, meaning you won’t change your attitude and next game you’re going to rush into exploits again and it will be your own fault when you inevitably experience disappointment again, OR
B. Drop the attitude and just admit it was a mistake to rush into an exploit.

Personally I see exactly zero value to the Prideful Anger Build you’re running. It just seems to leave you frustrated and angry.

40

Yeah that’s an entirely fair sort of pressure on devs to get balance issues fixed quick, and also an attitude that’ll leave you generally a lot happier than the players who are outraged that something got fixed.

1 Like